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Yes, you said all of that earlier. You're still saying two wrongs would make a right.
While bailing you out is morally the same as bailing out the airline industry, there's a big difference in magnitude. A $20B student loan bailout would reduce the $1.6T owed by about 1%, or a few hundred dollars per borrower. $10,000 handouts to the 45 million people with student loans would cost nearly half a trillion dollars--well into we-can't-afford-it territory.
I'm absolutely saying that. I’d prefer the term “fair,” but yeah. The bigger questions are probably this: “Is it ‘right’ to bailout the airline industry after giving then trillion dollar tax breaks that they spent on stock buy backs? Is it ‘right’ to bailout students who are struggling with student loans that can’t be discharged in bankruptcy while big business is allowed this opportunity?” What's right? What’s fair? And at what point does looking out for yourself, or you business, move from right/fair to wrong/greedy?
EDIT: if it makes you feel better, you can substitute the oil industry and farming for auto/banks. The point is, where do we draw the line. Why are some bailouts/subsidies/giveaways okay, but others are not? The answer is likely The Lobby Industry.
Last edited by stone26; 12-23-2020 at 11:11 AM..
Reason: Added stuff
I think the problem is more complex than that. It starts with the fact our education system encourages students from the day they enter kindergarten that they must go to college. Net result is too many people going to college who don't really need it.
Combine that with the fact these same kids get bad career and educational advice on what courses to take.
Who's at fault? The kid who listened to the advice of professionals or the professionals who gave it for years? You even see it on this forum -- anyone who suggests not all kids should go to college gets dissed pretty heavily.
The other issue is while it's fun to point out basket weaving, the reality is those are such a small subset of degrees, they really don't move the needle. We're at the point where solid degrees leading to good jobs from a state R1 cost as much or more than miscellaneous degrees from small LACs. The full cost of attendance at my oldest's state R1 was about $200,000. Fortunately she got scholarships for about half that and worked while she was in school, but still needed about $50K in debt to complete her degree.
Like I said in an earlier post, that was an eyes wide open decision based on quality of program and job outcomes from that university so there's a net positive ROI. But consider how many kids aren't getting that level of detail from their school guidance and parents? So while students and their parents have some responsibility in the loan crisis, I also feel that the education system they and their parents trusted set them up for failure. It's that complicity by the education system that makes me consider that some level of "fix" is needed.
Location: Formerly Pleasanton Ca, now in Marietta Ga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stone26
On the flipside of that, how many more jobs would be created if people's student loans were forgiven, which means that theoretically, that money would now be pumped back into the economy. People will spend that money to buy cars, houses, take trips on airlines, etc. And that, theoretically, will add jobs to the economy.
Take trips on airlines, you mean the ones that we let go belly up? People who have student debt are degreed and can get jobs. Laying off a bunch of people that have no degree, families to support, middle age will cost more. Now you have a lot of people who are mostly unemployable. Who’s paying for that.
Again, when the student started college they had a choice to incur the debt of a loan in return for a potential career or find another way like work part time, junior college, pick a cheaper school. They chose to take on the debt.
Take trips on airlines, you mean the ones that we let go belly up? People who have student debt are degreed and can get jobs. Laying off a bunch of people that have no degree, families to support, middle age will cost more. Now you have a lot of people who are mostly unemployable. Who’s paying for that.
Again, when the student started college they had a choice to incur the debt of a loan in return for a potential career or find another way like work part time, junior college, pick a cheaper school. They chose to take on the debt.
As an aside... i worked 60 hours a week during undergrad and grad school, started at a JC, and went to state schools after that. It took me about 12-14 years total because I had to keep quitting school in order to work. And I still ended up with debt because I was living on my own starting a few weeks before finishing high school. Was there another way that I missed? Lol.
Using your same logic, when the people who work in the airline industry started working there, they knew they had a choice, take a job that may make you unemployable if it goes bankrupt, or make yourself more marketable by incurring student loan debt and getting degrees. They chose the easy route. Same goes for the farmers and their billion dollar subsidies, and the oil industry and their billion dollar subsidies, etc. See what I did there? Of course, the real world is a lot more complicated than that.
Look, I may be fine with my degrees and upper-middle class life, but I’ve spent far more of my life in poverty and low/working class. And most of my family and friends are still there, getting COVID because they work in service industries or in warehouses. There are 7 kids in my family, I’m the only one who was lucky enough to work my way up to where I am (and yes, luck had a lot to do with it). Only my 52 year old older brother attended college and grad school, and has been struggling with temp jobs since the 2008 recession. He needs loan forgiveness far more than I do. And while I am childless, my nieces and nephews are mostly heading down the same path as their parents. Only one is in college so far, and is starting to incur loan debt as he works his way through. His parents don’t make enough to help him, they are barely above water themselves, and don’t understand the financial aide process anyway and usually call me to help them. My mom was a factory worker and my dad spent most of his life as an out-of-work carpenter. And I myself have cleaned toilets, mopped floors, cleaned bottled water bottles, washed dishes, etc., whatever I needed to do to be able to get by. And that usually meant working two jobs and living with roommates, well into my mid-to-late 30s. I bring all this up just show that the scenarios you’re describing above, I know them well. I lived them for the vast majority of my life. Most of my siblings are still living them. Chances are, my dad is homeless RIGHT NOW. And when companies get bailouts/subsidies/whatever, and my family/friends still have to live paycheck to paycheck, it kind of pisses me off. When they get multiple bailouts, but my brother has to struggle with his student loans (mostly due to a disability), it kind of pisses me off. The fact that their jobs at companies with billion-dollar profits (Hi Walmart!) usually penalize them somehow for taking sick time pisses me off.
As I said, I’m fine. And if my student loans don't get discharged, I will still be fine. That doesn’t mean my family, and the people I love, are fine. And while I may have using my own life situations to make my arguments here, the truth is, I'm not fighting for myself, I’m fighting for them. I’ll be fine. I can’t promise that they will be, without some major changes or help along the way. Forgiving their student loans would be a good place to start.
I think the problem is more complex than that. It starts with the fact our education system encourages students from the day they enter kindergarten that they must go to college. Net result is too many people going to college who don't really need it.
Germany has 2 main paths, which makes sense. University and a vocational path. We need a return to the second option.
As an aside... i worked 60 hours a week during undergrad and grad school, started at a JC, and went to state schools after that. It took me about 12-14 years total because I had to keep quitting school in order to work. And I still ended up with debt because I was living on my own starting a few weeks before finishing high school. Was there another way that I missed? Lol.
Actually, yes, you did miss one way. If you’re able to learn independently you can take various exams like CLEP and DSST for credit and a few universities allow you to construct a degree almost entirely with such exams. This lets you study when you can, take exams when you can and graduate in a lot shorter time.
Actually, yes, you did miss one way. If you’re able to learn independently you can take various exams like CLEP and DSST for credit and a few universities allow you to construct a degree almost entirely with such exams. This lets you study when you can, take exams when you can and graduate in a lot shorter time.
But it only focuses on classes and leaves out majority of the college education that achieved through research, contribution to published work, and working closely with professors and graduate students. It's fine if all you want is the piece of paper, but if you want a college education.. this isn't going to get you there.
But it only focuses on classes and leaves out majority of the college education that achieved through research, contribution to published work, and working closely with professors and graduate students. It's fine if all you want is the piece of paper, but if you want a college education.. this isn't going to get you there.
Fine, but the previous poster mentioned 12-14 years to complete. It’s possible to learn all this independently and then prove the knowledge in a way that incurs little to no debt.
Vocational actually exists and is widely available through community colleges.
The problem in the US is that a vocational occupation is never presented as a viable alternative to college at any point K-12. The entire education industry is designed to drive every kid to college.
Most kids know, however, by the end of their ninth grade whether they're interested in the extended scholarship that they then see a bachelor's degree will require. But even going into high school, the education industry continues to sell them on going to college.
Nor do most high schools offer a rigorous tech-prep curriculum that will prepare kids for advanced technical training after high school. I'm not talking about a shop class here and there. I'm talking about a curriculum that will hammer them with three years of applied algebra and plane geometry, computer programming, technical reading and writing, small business management, building science, applied electronics, small business law, municipal codes, hydraulics, mechanical operations, et cetera.
But no, what high schools do today is offer a watered-down college-prep curriculum for the 30% of kids who will eventually get bachelor's degrees, and just waste the time of the other 70%.
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