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lol do you have data to back that up because as far as I know doctoral programs are expensive...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessiegirl_98
Also, just to point out regarding doctoral debt is that PhD's in clinical and counseling are almost always free.
Again, you need to figure out what is best for you. I knew I wanted to get a PhD, but if you only want the masters, you can definitely find a way to make it work well. Don't go into a PhD program unless you are fully dedicated.
Out of the 100 or so Ph.D.s that I know, maybe 5 of them had a full scholarship. The remainder had small scholarships but financed most of their education through part-time jobs and loans.
My Ph.D. is in Counseling Psychology, not Clinical Psychology, and funding is probably a bit worse in Counseling but it was more interesting to me because at least at the APA-accredited program I attended, our coursework was more varied and we had more freedom than the Clinical students who ended up doing a ton of required research for their professors. They had better financial packages, though, so perhaps the trade off was worth it.
Out of the 100's that I know (I have my PhD in clinical) I know 1 person with a PhD in clinical that did not have a full scholarship. All competative PhD programs in clinical give $$$. Not all have large stipends (may be 10-15K) but if you are competative, you can 100% get funding FOR TUITION with a PhD. You may need some jobs, loans, etc to pay for living expenses. I would never advise a competative student to go to a program that didn't get 100% tuition for a PhD in clinical or counseling for that matter because there are so many that provide it.
I also applied to counseling programs and you're right, not all of those have funding, but again, there are enough that do that if you are competative and want to find a school with funding, you can (for the PhD). That being said, I did get accepted to counseling programs with money.
PsyD's don't have funding (in general, although I just had a student who found on that did)
Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy
lol do you have data to back that up because as far as I know doctoral programs are expensive...
It's called knowledge of the field If you are getting a PhD, they are generally free, especially in psych (which is what I was talking about). Not necessarily in every other field, but I know people in sociology, biology, english, chemistry, political science that have them.
Here, you'll see that PsyDs have twice as much debt Monitor on Psychology - Mounting debt
PhD's have an average of 55K in debt when they graduated. Being that the PhD is 5-7 years, that can average less than 10K in loans/year (this would be living expenses as tuition is generally covered)
I also applied to counseling programs and you're right, not all of those have funding, but again, there are enough that do that if you are competative and want to find a school with funding, you can (for the PhD). That being said, I did get accepted to counseling programs with money.
You must be more competitive than myself and all my loser psychologist friends who didn't get all our tuition funded by our programs.
You must be more competitive than myself and all my loser psychologist friends who didn't get all our tuition funded by our programs.
hahaha. I'm not saying that, nor did I mean to imply that your program wasn't as good. I, for instance, have a friend who did pick a program that didn't have funding due to location and a professor he wanted to work with. There are just a lot of programs out there that offer it so if $$$ is a priority for you, you can get enough experience, etc to get in a program that funds you.
Jessiegirl has pretty effectively covered this thread. I'll add my 2 cents.
As a semi-retired MSW therapist/social worker I must say that after two years of school including clinical placements at a juvie school, a childrens hospital (by far the sickest, gamiest staff I experienced), and a VA substance abuse unit, I do not believe I was as well prepared clinically as I could have been.
I got my stripes on the street, so to speak. Inpatient sw at a psych hospital for years, a couple of years at an inner city jr. high school filled with kids from dysfunctional families/gangstas/druggies, etc. and lots of time doing group, and later work in hospice, is what IMO got me the clinical skills I'd need to work in private practice or any other environment I wanted to.
That goes on top of a lot of initial work on my own spiritual development, self education in the addictions field, and learning group work from the inside. To me that's as important as any clinical expience. I believe a good practitioner has dealt with their own issues and been willing to face their own demons before asking others to walk down that road.
From what I've read and seen, the best therapists are the best therapists. It doesn't matter if they have an MA, MSW, PhD, MD, RN, etc. I've also seen a number of BSWs who knew their stuff as well as anyone I've met.
I had a friend/colleague who had been an MSW for 15+ years when he decided to "improve my lot" and go for a PsyD.
As he neared the end of the program, he said he'd have been financially better off buying Wal Mart stock with the money he'd invested in school.
Whether his further education made him a better clinician I do not know, I lost track of him as he moved on.
Just to concur - PhDs from APA accredited schools are "free." They pay your tuition and pay you a small stipend. Most students still need to take out loans to live, but it's nothing in comparison to other grad degrees (in my case, tuition was free, I made 13k a year, and had to take out small loans to cover living).
Also wanted to point out that one of the main differences between the degrees is not the average pay but more the opportunity for pay. I know psychologists who pull in 300k (as consultants) and some that make 46k.
Anyway, I also know MSWs who are wonderful therapists, love what they do, and make decent money.
The point is - there are opportunities for success no matter what path you choose.
I know psychologists who pull in 300k (as consultants) and some that make 46k.
Are the consulting psychologists still earning $300K in this economy? The membership of Division 13 of APA (Society of Consulting Psychologists) just had an email thread where business psychologists from all over the country lamented how hard hit their consulting practices were from the downturn.
Some of them seemed to be having a tough time finding work. Do you know which consulting niches have proven to be more recession-proof? I'll share one that seems to be doing well: a friend of mine does child evaluations for Child Protective Services. She is booked solid for months. It is sad but it seems the stress of the bad economy is causing a lot of business for anyone who has contracts with CPS.
Yeah, that's what I've found too, niches can be profitable. Let's see, the ones who are making tons of money - one does business consulting about the psychology of success, one does sex offender evals, one has a very famous theory and gives talks around the world - those are the biggies. All of those people are quite established in their career though.
Salary can start very similar, but can increase much more if you have a doctorate and are in private practice. That being said, if you go the PsyD route you also have 4+ more years of loans. When you get your doctorate in counseling, you can pretty much do the same things as a clinical psychologist, and you will be competing for jobs with them. To get a doctorate, you would generally just apply for the PhD or PsyD straight out of undergrad...no masters needed (you get it along the way). Otherwise, you can get your masters and then apply for the doctorate, but you usually loose 1 out of 2 of the years for your masters (e.g., 1 year will count towards doctorate, 1 won't), so I wouldn't recommend that if you know for sure that you want the doctorate and can get into a doctoral program
All of this being said, don't go into the field thinking its a money maker. When you get your doctorate (so after 5-7 years), you have to do at least a 1 year long postdoc to get licensed. These generally pay (on average) 30K. If you are lucky and don't do a clinical postdoc (so do research or teach), you may make 50K when you are out. Not bad, but considering I make the same as my much younger cousins with just BA's (who just got out of undergrad), you don't do it for the money. For the next several years after that, the salary is about 50K-70K on the absolute high end (more about 50K). And, if you go to a PsyD program, you'll likely end up with 100-150K in loans, which is more than $600/month that you'll have to repay.
I'm not discouraging you at all, as this is my field and I LOVE it, but I am certainly not doing it for the money and I just want you to be informed. Let me know if you have other questions.
Thank you a thousand times for this post! I was thinking of a PsyD or a EdD and I was trying to justify the cost for the PsyD.
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If you are getting a PhD, they are generally free, especially in psych (which is what I was talking about). Not necessarily in every other field, but I know people in sociology, biology, english, chemistry, political science that have them.
