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Finally, theoretical knowledge is what separates a university education from a trade-school education. A university, in concept, is teaching you to think, whereas a trade school teaches you how to do. Most community colleges seem to be somewhere in between with maybe a little more emphasis on the "how to do" end of things. Both are valuable skills, but the end goals are somewhat different.
If you go to community college for trade school skills, then you'll get that kind of education. However, to think that all a community college does is teach trade skills is discounting the community college. If the end results were truly different, then students wouldn't use CC to start off a Bachelor's degree at.
I don't have anything against community colleges - I think they're a great, needed and useful resource.
However, to say they're academically better because the instructors are more accessible is not necessarily accurate in a general sense, for a number of reasons.
Most universities, particularly at the undergraduate level, provide free tutoring. The professor may not be as available as instructors in some community colleges, but TAs or other helper staff are. Most of the helper staff would be qualified to teach the subject matter at many community colleges.
Smaller four-year colleges generally have professors who are more available than professors at research universities are, too.
Not all instructors at community colleges are any more available than professors at four-year universities are. Most four-year university professors are full-time professors, whereas many (if not most) community college instructors are part-time and have other outside pressures on their time, too.
Finally, theoretical knowledge is what separates a university education from a trade-school education. A university, in concept, is teaching you to think, whereas a trade school teaches you how to do. Most community colleges seem to be somewhere in between with maybe a little more emphasis on the "how to do" end of things. Both are valuable skills, but the end goals are somewhat different.
I attended a community college before a 4 year university. I found that, at the community college, they were more concerned with my learning. Classes tended to meet for more hours per week and covered more material than my counterparts in the 4 year university covered in the same time. My math background was head and shoulders above my 4 year university peers when I transferred. While they knew how to do things, they didn't realize when things did not apply to the situation at hand. I did. I was, constantly telling them "You can't do that here because.....". IMO, that's the difference between taking Calc I, II and III as 5 credit courses meeting 5 times a week and as 3 credit courses meeting 3 times a week. I had 2/3 more classtime than my peers at the 4 year university. I attribute my success there and beyond to the foundation laid at the community college. IMO, I got more theoretical knowledge at the community college because I was in class more but I also got more how to.
I felt like the community college was trying to impart as much education as possible in 2 years, whereas, the 4 year university left me on my own. There is merit in that but I'm glad I had the community college experience first. I was better prepared to teach myself when I got to the 4 year university.
I went to a small university so professor availability was about the same except that many of the first two years of classes were taught by TA's not professors at the university. At the community college, some of my professors only had masters degrees but, IMO, that beats a TA. As a transfer student, I got to skip most of the TA taught classes.
I'm a community college instructor. I am applying to a PhD program, mainly because my long term goal is to teach at a four year university.
I'm wondering is there anyone here that has had significant experience at both levels. What can you tell me about the differences. As a student I only have experience at four year universities, I have only taught, never attended community college.
My main reason I would say for wanting to teach at a four year university is the quality of the students. I know four year universities have issues with frats/drinking, etc., etc. and yes I know there is the issue of having to "dumb down" the material at the 4-yr level, but it seems to be the little bit of admission requirements and the fact that it takes a little more effort to get in, would weed out students that truly are not prepared.
Now keep in mind, andy comments about community college, for the most part does NOT apply to night classes and summer classes, there the quality of students are more adult or just more mature.
There are other reasons. I like having a real department, with faculty you see all the time, just a much greater intellectual atmosphere, more "community" at the four year level.
So what are your experiences? Is there anyone here that has had a better experience at the community college level.
I'm interested in hearing any and all input.
Your post confuses me on several levels, and I have both taught at and attended community college, a good 4 year college, and a couple of universities, one top and one mediocre.
Here's my first point of confusion - why do you think you can teach at a four year college? The market for tenured faculty is abysmal in almost every subject, although I'm sure there are exceptions (are you sure your subject is one of them?) If you're not one of those exceptions, you'd have a better chance of getting a job as a rock star than as a professor or even full-time instructor at a four year college or university. If you actually have a full-time job at a community college, that is already more than most PhD's can even hope for today, so you'd be crazy to give it up. The days are long gone when community college was a fall-back for failed PhD's.
Second confusing thing - your description of teaching at a 4-year college does not reflect reality. In fact, teaching is the last thing anyone cares about at these schools - the positions are much more about research and professional activities. In most fields today you'd need about three articles published in peer-reviewed journals just to get a response to an application for a full-time position. And the atmosphere? Very little compares to the pettiness, infighting, and politics of the average academic department. Sure, you'll probably see the faculty all the time - you just won't want to.
Finally, about the students. I have taught both day and night classes at community college. I have found unprepared students at all levels and in all populations. I have had adults who had never used a computer and refused to - even though the course was partly online. Others simply couldn't adjust to the modern classroom environment. Their problems may have been different, but they certainly had just as many as younger students.
As far as students being better at a four year college - not in my experience. The worst ever were the students at the best university - a sense of entitlement coupled with the belief that "personal problems" were an acceptable reason to skip 99% of their classes and then beg, plead and finally threaten the instructor if they didn't get a passing grade. They expected everything for nothing. My community college students might be poorer, and some less prepared, but they work just as hard and learn just as fast, and without the attitude.
Anyway, my point is that your generalizations are way off. It can go either way, and a lot depends on the classes taught and the specific school. You won't necessarily be happier with the students at a four year college, even if you find a job at one. Don't pursue a PhD unless you are passionate about the subject itself, and are sure there is a strong market for professors in that field.
Your post confuses me on several levels, and I have both taught at and attended community college, a good 4 year college, and a couple of universities, one top and one mediocre.
Here's my first point of confusion - why do you think you can teach at a four year college? The market for tenured faculty is abysmal in almost every subject, although I'm sure there are exceptions (are you sure your subject is one of them?) If you're not one of those exceptions, you'd have a better chance of getting a job as a rock star than as a professor or even full-time instructor at a four year college or university. If you actually have a full-time job at a community college, that is already more than most PhD's can even hope for today, so you'd be crazy to give it up. The days are long gone when community college was a fall-back for failed PhD's.
Second confusing thing - your description of teaching at a 4-year college does not reflect reality. In fact, teaching is the last thing anyone cares about at these schools - the positions are much more about research and professional activities. In most fields today you'd need about three articles published in peer-reviewed journals just to get a response to an application for a full-time position. And the atmosphere? Very little compares to the pettiness, infighting, and politics of the average academic department. Sure, you'll probably see the faculty all the time - you just won't want to.
Finally, about the students. I have taught both day and night classes at community college. I have found unprepared students at all levels and in all populations. I have had adults who had never used a computer and refused to - even though the course was partly online. Others simply couldn't adjust to the modern classroom environment. Their problems may have been different, but they certainly had just as many as younger students.
As far as students being better at a four year college - not in my experience. The worst ever were the students at the best university - a sense of entitlement coupled with the belief that "personal problems" were an acceptable reason to skip 99% of their classes and then beg, plead and finally threaten the instructor if they didn't get a passing grade. They expected everything for nothing. My community college students might be poorer, and some less prepared, but they work just as hard and learn just as fast, and without the attitude.
Anyway, my point is that your generalizations are way off. It can go either way, and a lot depends on the classes taught and the specific school. You won't necessarily be happier with the students at a four year college, even if you find a job at one. Don't pursue a PhD unless you are passionate about the subject itself, and are sure there is a strong market for professors in that field.
I appreciate the input, but per my last post, this thread was resurrected from nearly four years ago.
Since then, I have grown up, gained experience, and have since gotten used to the community college environment.
In fact, Mods, it might be best to close this thread. Someone must have discovered this and resurrected it.
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Originally Posted by Tex?Il?
I started this thread three and a half years ago. How the heck did this get resurrected?
I guess folks are still going to school in USA (which is GOOD news for you)
I advocate 'outsourcing' K-22 edu (and all healthcare) in USA to a nation that has proven success. Concentrate USA resources on Innovation (if that is still an 'instructable' program). Maybe getting kids back on the farm would help. Dairy Farm Boarding School worked for me.
One difference in CC vs U, is a 90% plus pass rate for CC students that transfer into U; where 'first timers' into U environment have a less than 50% chance of graduation from chosen U.
I do agree with the PP's who mentioned a higher deliverable for edu content from CC's (Having just completed a post grad program at a Private U, and my kids recently graduating Public U's after attending free CC instead of HS. They (and I) were REALLY disapointed in the 'Value per credit hour' in U. Pathetic little content delivered @ U. Profs REALLY have an ego issue about thier 'knowledge' (Which is often not much).
YMMV., (But I will do the rest of my studies overseas, and convincing my kids to do so as well) Not much convincing necessary as we have lived overseas, and have benefited from 'True diversity' not USA PC 'Engineered diversity'. The CC have MUCH better integration of students (especially age groups) and faculty too. USA U's are pretty much 'has-beens' IMHO
This thread is done. It should not have been resurrected. No offense to you Stealthrabbit, but I'm not going to comment on your post. It is best for me to ignore it.
Kids at quality universities already have a bunch of credits from HS or classes they took at a local CC. The university student on average is going to be smarter.
If you go to community college for trade school skills, then you'll get that kind of education. However, to think that all a community college does is teach trade skills is discounting the community college. If the end results were truly different, then students wouldn't use CC to start off a Bachelor's degree at.
I posted earlier that because I had more class time with my teachers at the CC, I had a much stronger foundation than my peers when I transferred to the university.
There are many reasons why students go to CC. Peopls ASSume that the only reason someone goes is they want a voc or tech track or they just weren't smart enough to get into a 4 year university. Some people are just smart enough to realize that the first two years of classes cost less than one semester at a university if you take them at a CC...or they prefer more support in the classroom with teachers instead of TA's and more class time.
It must be pretty common to do a two by two. The university I attended was small yet they gave away 12 full ride scholarships to transfer students from CC's every year. I was lucky enough to get one. Otherwise, for financial reasons, my education would have ended after CC.
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The CC have MUCH better integration of students (especially age groups) and faculty too. USA U's are pretty much 'has-beens' IMHO
