Law School Bubble (reputation, accredited, scores, salary)

[kek1993]

Well, I don't have a huge student loan, did not go to law school, recently talked to a lawyer, who is working for fed government, doing contracting, at $65.000 a year, and happy for the job. He could not find work anywhere. 10 years ago, people who did not have law degrees were able to get ajudication jobs for state agencies, usually with an MPA. Now, no way, because people with law degrees want those jobs, jobs that they did not even bother to apply for several years ago.

[John23]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

I think you are right, and not just for law school (although law students are more adversely effected than most, given the seven years of school.)

This is an incredibly sobering website for anyone thinking about borrowing right now to "go to college." Were I a high school guidance counselor, I would make all my students read these stories:

StudentLoanJustice.Org

The cramdowns being called for on these loans is one "bailout" I can in good conscience actually support. Many colleges and universities need to be shut down, in my view.

I think the whole world is going to be flipped upside down in 5 or 10 years, that's putting it lightly. People are going to wake up to this mass baby boomer power grab of the last 30 years that's pushed gen x and y completely out of the game.

-A power grab in the sense of grabbing all the valuable degrees 30 or 40 years ago.

-Grabbed all the real estate (with the earnings from those degrees)

-Grabbed all communication, media and thought control for younger generations. Media has been a scam for gen x and y for the last 25 years. It's done nothing to advance their situation. It's been blabbering idiots and distractions. While the boomers work and extend their power, and x and y are confused and believe anything a highschool guidance counselor will tell them.

-And in the last 8 years, pushed everything to the brink.

The laws are going to have to radically change on student debt repayment. Enrollment will eventually have to start dropping if the earnings aren't there after graduation.

[DreamingSpires]

Downturn Dims Prospects Even at Top Law Schools

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/bu....html?ref=jobs

[susansong]

I think it's really an issue of cost. If law school (or even college) still cost only a few thousand dollars a year, there wouldn't be so much pressure to make a high salary to repay the loans. Having high debt limits what you can do and forces you to go after the most money possible to repay the debt.

[charolastra00]

Originally Posted by DreamingSpires

"Third Tier Reality" deals mainly with the "non-elite" law schools -- however the writer is excellent, and reflects on many aspects of the profession.

I didn't realise that you only wanted to go to a top-25 law school--I thought you were interested in becoming a lawyer per se, not in a credential only from a specific type of school. That certainly does change the equation.

If your friends are both headed toward T14 schools, it is still a calculated risk, but the odds are weighted much more heavily in their favor. I have heard anecdotally though that some T14 law students are also struggling to find employment.

But then again, take what I say with a grain of salt of course--I attended mostly "non-reputable" schools, so what do I know?

Good luck.

I want to work for an international NGO (think Amnesty International, Oxfam type orgs), a multilateral development bank (like World Bank, the IMF, Inter-American Development Bank, etc), or a business dealing with natural resource acquisition in Latin America (typically large multinational corporations).

Yes I want to be a lawyer. However, I want to be an EMPLOYED lawyer that is employable in my field. That isn't going to happen at a non-elite school. When you look at lawyers in those fields, they typically went to elite (if not necessarily T14) law schools. I wouldn't care about the credentials otherwise- it's not about money for me, simply positioning to be in a job where I am happy.

[citygirlll]

There are a lot of good posts here, but I think one thing that no one has addressed is some of the common misconceptions about law school, especially weighed against the cost of tuition.

1) I'll be able to use a law degree no matter what field I go into. True in the sense that any general education can be useful, but it won't necessarily qualify you to do anything else without experience in that field and may cause some employers to consider you overqualified.

2) If I don't graduate at the top of my class, I'll just work for a non-profit or a small firm. Those jobs can still be very difficult to get, especially if you graduate from a low-ranked law school. These days people are volunteering for free at non-profits and government agencies just to get experience.

3) I'll be able to use my law degree to help people. See above.

4) I want to do something intellecually challenging. Actually, a lot of legal work -- especially for new graduates -- involves reviewing documents and can be pretty dull.

If someone is truly determined to go to law school, he or she should be prepared for the drudge work and possibility of low pay, not just the high salaries at the top of the field.

[Frank the Tank]

Originally Posted by Drover

But I think what he's asking, and it's a good question, is why did the ABA accredit so many law schools as to allow the supply/demand imbalance to grow so wide -- and for that matter, why do they continue to accredit new law schools?

When you put it this way, I agree - I'm at a loss as to why the ABA continues to accredit more law schools other than the organization simply wants more potential dues-paying members down the road to expand its influence. (On a side note, I'm no longer an ABA member as it's become way too protective of the trial lawyer side of the membership at the expense of the other areas of the law.)

There's also a difference between an oversupply of lawyers that want high paying jobs (which is what we seem to be more focused on in this thread) versus an oversupply of lawyers overall. Certainly, there are plenty of public interest groups and community organizations that need a lot of legal help - it's just that they pay little to no money where a newly minted law graduate simply can't afford to pay down his/her massive debt load on that type of salary. Think of just foreclosures alone, which create a ton of legal work. The issue, of course, is that people that are going through a foreclosure probably can't afford to pay much, if anything, for an attorney. So, I don't think that there's necessarily an oversupply of lawyers relative to the amount of overall legal work right now. What's really the issue is that the expected ROI for the average law student is way out of whack compared to what it was during economic boom periods because the legal work that's out there doesn't pay very much at all.

I don't know how this is going to play out. As I've stated before, law firms generally rebounded very well after past recessions, but there seems to be much more of an undercurrent that the old hourly fee model is going to be completely restructured over the next few years. Frankly, I'm very happy that I'm not in BIGLAW anymore (although I very much appreciate that the experience has opened doors for me elsewhere).

[Sandpointian]

Originally Posted by charolastra00

I want to work for an international NGO (think Amnesty International, Oxfam type orgs), a multilateral development bank (like World Bank, the IMF, Inter-American Development Bank, etc), or a business dealing with natural resource acquisition in Latin America (typically large multinational corporations).

Yes I want to be a lawyer. However, I want to be an EMPLOYED lawyer that is employable in my field. That isn't going to happen at a non-elite school. When you look at lawyers in those fields, they typically went to elite (if not necessarily T14) law schools. I wouldn't care about the credentials otherwise- it's not about money for me, simply positioning to be in a job where I am happy.

You are right. One thing you MUST understand about high end NGOs or UN/multilateral institutions: they are the BIGGEST SNOBS in the world. Take it form one who has consulted with them on several occasions. Merit is well down the list, but who you know and what schools you came from--your pedigree--is all important. You can substitute a long and distinguished career for the lack of elitism, but that is the long way.

S.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by Sandpointian

You are right. One thing you MUST understand about high end NGOs or UN/multilateral institutions: they are the BIGGEST SNOBS in the world. Take it form one who has consulted with them on several occasions. Merit is well down the list, but who you know and what schools you came from--your pedigree--is all important.
S.

Great observation. I believe this fact accounts for their general lack of effectiveness in nearly all areas apart from promoting the careers of coddled bureacrats.

[Sandpointian]

If you look at the Obama, Clinton, and Kennedy administrations, we see the same pattern: domination by Harvard and Yale alums. And in the Obama administration, ex-Goldman Sachs guys everywhere. Hmmm...and Goldman makes off like bandits during the crisis...hmmm....

On the beltway, the celebrity and star-struck want their pedigree.

The problem is threefold. One, try as they may, their insularity means that there is a huge diconnect between the Boston-DC corridor and the rest of America. It is almost embarassing. Hillary Clinton's sheer ignorance implicit in her suggestion that the US should abandon the electoral college demonstrates a complete disconnect from the majority of US states and their interests.

Two, the Harvard-Yale political inbreeding has been terrible for how America functions with the rest of the world, save Israel and Europe. They have been utterly incompetent on Asia and we, the next two+ generations, will pay the price. And on Israel and the Middle East??? Let's just say that our unapologetic support for Israel, even as they transformed from "underdog fighters" to fascist and racist oppressor in a mere 25 years, is a concoction brewed among the Northeast Ivy-types.

Three, many laws and policies that the US has put into place, ranging from the difficult to detect to the egregious, have favored the elites. One thing I would like to see is the removal of non-profit status of the elite universities. Also, I would like to see the medical profession to offered tiered services so that one need not pay a small fortune for simple out-of-pocket consultation and treatment. And high level government jobs? Please. The ultimate club.

S.