Law School Bubble (skills, degrees, cost, med school)

[retired partner]

Interesting article on the law school bubble.

I don't understand why applications to law school continue to increase as the tuition goes higher but opportunities for graduates are declining and will not recover after the recession. Bottom line, there is a massive oversupply of lawyers, law students and law schools.

The Legal Dollar: Buying A Law Degree At The Height Of The Bubble

[flyers29]

Because no one takes the time to tell students about the realities of the profession before they enter law school. These "pre-law" advisors they have at school aren't helping, either.

[FutureTeacher2008]

When I was deciding whether to go to law school, everybody thought it was a great idea -- a very safe thing to do. I think people have this idea based on what law was like in the 1950s or 1960s, which is like assuming "Mad Men" is what an ad agency is like today.

The reality is that there are only a few options available to law students now. You can go to a top-ranked law school, graduate in the top quarter of your class and get a job at a large corporate law firm, which will allow you to repay the $200,000 or so in law school debt that you owe. After a few years (usually by the fifth year), you'll either leave because you can't stand the work hours and environment anymore or will be asked to leave by the firm. You might move to another firm up to year five or six, but after that, unless you have a big book of portable business, you're untouchable. No firm wants you, and corporate and government jobs are scarce compared to the number of lawyers looking for work.

The other alternative - taking a lower-paid job in small firm or doing document review - means that it's difficult to repay the loans and the job security isn't necessarily any better.

There are going to be a lot of people laid during this recession who never find work in law again unless they try to hang out their own shingle.

[citygirlll]

There are going to be a lot of people laid off during this recession who never find work in law again unless they try to hang out their own shingle.

That's true, but it isn't going to stop people from paying thousands of dollars in tuition because they think they'll be the exception. They should check out jdunderground.com and abovethelaw.com to get an idea of what's really going on out there.

[hsw]

No one smart has pursued law for some 25+ yrs, since emergence of modern finance and tech industries

Hell, back in mid-80s smartest M&A lawyers became M&A investment bankers to make more money and work in a more intellectually interesting role; world has become far more tech and quant-oriented over past 15 yrs; law is for Luddites

Smart kids (and their presumably smart and wiser parents) should be able to figure this stuff out on own....silly to blame loser educators who can't figure out basic career and industrial logic for absurd choices of kids and their allegedly shrewd parents in pursuing some costly lib arts college and then law or business or med school to find some low-income, non-quant job....

[Sandpointian]

As to the OP, students consider graduate school a tournament. If they win or get close to winning, the earnings rise exponentially. Many wish to take on that gamble.

As to law in the past 25 years...I would not go so far as to say smart people avoid law, but rather it continues to attract the risk averse. Actually, as the world becomes more tech and quant-oriented, law becomes that much more important and complex given the nature of innovation and contracts.

On the low end, I agree, basic stuff is accessible to anyone who bothers. However, when you get into IP, cross-border M&A, contracts involving more complex financial instruments or contigency claims, there is still plenty of need for well-trained lawyers. That said, I again agree that the better lawyers are very tempted to cross over to hedge funds and I-banking since the pay differential is tremendous in the extreme.

Finally, most students really have no idea, despite the tons of information out there. They can access and read the information, but cannot process the experiences of those 10-20 years their senior. Perhaps I was the same. There remains a mentality that (a) university guarantees the career path, (b) that preparation is only through classes, and (c) that cross-pollination is the exception rather than the rule. The advice they get from educators, parents, and peers is just awful and filled with political correctness and formulaic thinking.

While I am actually a strong supporter of liberal arts, the degree is rarely designed with much rigour nowadays. More often than not it resembles a collection of watered-down and disparate requirements. Moreover, even if the curriculum is sound, it is rarely taught or pursued with the kind of vigour needed. Students, therefore, have the option to coast through their liberal arts degree, something that many will do quite willingly.

One last comment: the big money remains not with the quant jobs per se but with the quantitatively-sound people who can navigate a heavily quantitative world in a qualitative manner. Such people have excellent qualitative and quantitative skills, holistic backgrounds consistent with what true liberal arts degrees should offer. Sadly, n many LA programs, the math and science have been stripped out of or minimized, rendering them mediocre at best.

S.

[whydoucare?]

Originally Posted by citygirlll

There are going to be a lot of people laid off during this recession who never find work in law again unless they try to hang out their own shingle.

That's true, but it isn't going to stop people from paying thousands of dollars in tuition because they think they'll be the exception. They should check out jdunderground.com and abovethelaw.com to get an idea of what's really going on out there.

I think for anybody considering college needs to do extensive research of THEIR own. Don't depend on people from colleges to paint you this rosy picture because it is their job to get you to enroll in their school. Kudos to these websites where current lawyers, former lawyers, students and network together so people can get the real truth.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by citygirlll

There are going to be a lot of people laid off during this recession who never find work in law again unless they try to hang out their own shingle.

That's true, but it isn't going to stop people from paying thousands of dollars in tuition because they think they'll be the exception. They should check out jdunderground.com and abovethelaw.com to get an idea of what's really going on out there.

JDunderground is excellent, although it appears to be unmoderated and some of the language is atrocious.

One of the best blogs I have found is "Third Tier Reality" written by a guy who calls himself Nando.

[flyers29]

Just to be fair though, some of those sites are dominated by a bunch of yet-to-be-law-students who claim the "if you don't get your degree from xyz you'll be nothing" crap. Nothing wrong with being optimistic, but you also need to understand the drawbacks as well.

[Drover]

I'm doubling up on an LLM just to stand out from the ho-hum JD crowd. The best that can be said in my field of specialty is that nobody got fired. But nobody's getting hired right now either. I get to ride this out until May, and then it's time to hold on for dear life.