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Untrue. I base my vitriol off of the fact that both people I know who got English/English Lit. degrees now work for damn near minimum wage with no prospects for advancement.
Two people is an excellent sample size upon which to make sweeping generalizations. Kudos.
Two people is an excellent sample size upon which to make sweeping generalizations. Kudos.
You have a point. But, when one knows two people who went to elite private institutions and who now have damn near $100,000 in debt and no real job prospects it tends to color one's view of things.
Untrue. I base my vitriol off of the fact that both people I know who got English/English Lit. degrees now work for damn near minimum wage with no prospects for advancement.
I wonder if it could be at all possible that there are other contributing reasons for this state of affairs, or if it's definitively tied up in what classes somebody took in college.
Typically, people who find themselves in professional situations they find unpalatable find themselves in that position for a whole network of reasons, ranging from unfortunate timing, to unfortunate personal decisions, to self-sabotage, to poor interpersonal relationships with people who run things,to personal problems, to choosing other factors than professional advancement on which to focus. If somebody feels stuck at minimum wage and like they have no prospects for professional advancement, I'd say the odds are pretty good that they can blame it on a host of factors. Saying that professional failure is all due to taking a bunch of lit classes seems a little unlikely. I have to think there's a little more at work, there.
Really, if you can't make your degree work for you, the problem is probably you and not the degree.
You have a point. But, when one knows two people who went to elite private institutions and who now have damn near $100,000 in debt and no real job prospects it tends to color one's view of things.
It is a bit funny that people only complain about generalizing from the few when the person doing it is saying something they don't agree with.
This thread has been filled with English majors generalizing in the same fashion.
Regardless, I think its much better to look at general statistics and think about just what English programs accomplish in terms of skills rather then this sort of "Well I'm doing good and I majored in English" and "I know an English graduates working at Starbucks" sort of thing.
I wonder if it could be at all possible that there are other contributing reasons for this state of affairs, or if it's definitively tied up in what classes somebody took in college.
Typically, people who find themselves in professional situations they find unpalatable find themselves in that position for a whole network of reasons, ranging from unfortunate timing, to unfortunate personal decisions, to self-sabotage, to poor interpersonal relationships with people who run things,to personal problems, to choosing other factors than professional advancement on which to focus. If somebody feels stuck at minimum wage and like they have no prospects for professional advancement, I'd say the odds are pretty good that they can blame it on a host of factors. Saying that professional failure is all due to taking a bunch of lit classes seems a little unlikely. I have to think there's a little more at work, there.
Really, if you can't make your degree work for you, the problem is probably you and not the degree.
You make a lot of great points. In the scenarios you described above, these folks may just be "late bloomers." They may need to "jump start" their careers by looking at adding some additional training, getting more work experience, etc. Not everyone walks into a professional job immediately upon graduation, and this is also true of some business and science grads not just English majors.
There is also the issue of supply and demand and the economy.
For instance I know two architects who are unemployed (collecting benefits) as are most of their graduating class. Both have applied to minimum wage jobs and are desperately looking for alternative careers. This, however, would not cause me to conclude that "architecture is an inferior degree." The fact is, it is an extremely demanding degree, but the economic factors right now have shrunk demand for this particular skillset.
Naturally, you distort my comments. My claim was not that Philosophy is a "substitute" for English, nor that the two were identical. Rather, my claim was that English is a half-baked version of Philosophy. And the disciplines really do not complement each other, rather they are fairly hostile to each other. Philosophers typically view what goes on in English as rather nonsensical and lofty.
All the tangible skills that people claim you learn in English programs can be learned more directly and rigorously in other programs (e.g., a Philosophy program). The only thing is left is "the study of literature". One can do that with a library card.
No, it's not.
Literary study is an academic discipline in its own right with its own skillset. And no, reading books at the library is not a substitute for classroom teaching by a first-rate scholar of literature. I have done both and there is no comparison.
In contrast to Philosophy, literary study is at the core the study of human frailty. As Flannery O'Connor rightly observed, most individuals lack the courage to look at life this closely. Perhaps you, and the philosophers you speak about, are some of them.
It is a bit funny that people only complain about generalizing from the few when the person doing it is saying something they don't agree with.
This thread has been filled with English majors generalizing in the same fashion.
Regardless, I think its much better to look at general statistics and think about just what English programs accomplish in terms of skills rather then this sort of "Well I'm doing good and I majored in English" and "I know an English graduates working at Starbucks" sort of thing.
Perhaps you are looking at these statistics in a distorted way, through the lens of a pre-conceived agenda.
It's quite possible that the reason the median salary for "English majors" is lower is because a disproportionate number of them go into teaching. As you know, teacher salaries are generally considered "low." This perception however fails to take into account two factors (1) teachers have excellent job security in comparison to the private sector and (2) teachers have exccellent pensions.
In other words, I don't think you can look at this statistic in isolation when using it as a justification for crticizing the commercial value of an English degree. Perhaps a more accurate way of looking at the statistics would be to view them in the context of the following questions:
(1) What percentage of English majors go into teaching in proportion to other majors?
(2) What other types of jobs/careers do English majors pursue in comparison to their more highly-paid peers from other disciplines? How do these careers rank in terms of job satisfaction and job security?
You seem to think "everything is about money (salary)." Why is that?
It isn't "all about money," but perhaps to gain that kind of multi-dimensional perspective, one needs to examine life very closely--just as one does when studying literature as an English major.
A lot of English majors I know go into teaching, which is extremely rewarding. Or law school. Or business. Or marketing, publishing, editing, public relations, acting, journalism...there are enough choices that with a determined mind set, focus, and hard work, there can be success and you can make money with an English degree.
Look at the all the successful and varied English majors - James Cameron, Matt Damon, Joe Paterno, Barbara Walters, Clarance Thomas, Sting, Conan O'Brien, Stephen King, Paul Newman, Don Henley, Dave Barry, Paul Simon, Mario Cuomo, etc. There have been astronauts (Sally Ride), CEOs (Michael Eisner, Kathryn Fuller), cartoonists (Cathy Guisewite), the former President of Yale and MLB Commissioner (A. Bartlett Giamatti), the best directors of our time (Martin Scorsese, Steve Spielberg), lots of TV executives and actors and politicians and writers and broadcast journalists.
My father is an English major. He is now principal of a large middle school and makes well over $100,000 per year with a fat pension.[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
I love this list of English majors. Thank you for posting it! (repped you yesterday)
Literary study is an academic discipline in its own right with its own skillset.
And the skill set would include? And in what ways do these skills translate into something useful outside of the academic environment? I mean, even other people in the Humanities question their usefulness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
Perhaps you are looking at these statistics in a distorted way, through the lens of a pre-conceived agenda.
No, they are pretty clear. And your explanation of the low salary does not hold water. Teaching is one of the top paying jobs English majors get, so rather than lowering the median salary it is raising it! If the teaching jobs vanished, the median would be even lower.
Additionally, other majors that have a large number of people going into teaching (e.g., Mathematics, History) have higher median salaries.
Outside of teaching and writing related careers (editor, technical writer) the salaries commanded by English majors are fairly pathetic. And even these careers have pretty modest salaries, but at least they are enough to be financially secure (at least in most areas).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
You seem to think "everything is about money (salary)." Why is that?
No, rather I think having money and being financially secure is important. I'm not talking about being rich here, but rather having enough to have a decent home, to have savings, to do the sorts of things you'd like to do, etc. But perhaps to gain this perspective one has to examine human life closely -- just as one does when they study social science.
Anyhow, English majors have a harder time achieving this than a number of other majors. This is just the reality of the situation.
My daughter is a junior and she will be with merit scholarship (at least semi-finalist). I know it is weird to say but I don't like her desire to be an English major. Although she will have to live her life, as a dad, I have always hoped her to be in the area of science or medical professions.
She may start college with undecided major and would like to see if English can be her passion for life. I don't see anything wrong in her decision. However, it is also very very true that I feel very disappointed and uncomfortable to see her movement.
Maybe I can understand far less about what will happen if she will major in English than other scientific fields that I might know better. How would you think and behave in the case like mine?
It looks like there is no turning back to the above question.
And I don't think anyone is going to change another person's mind regarding the importance of English as a College Major. What typically happens in long threads such as this is new people will read the first two pages and then skip to the end to add their two cents with the caveat, "I didn't read most of this but here's what I think..." and then they will repeat what someone else said on page 5 or 6. Therefore, I am closing this thread. If someone else would like to start another thread with a similar topic, they are welcome to do so.
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