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The article actually doesn't say anything about science degrees, rather people with a BS. You can get a BS in numerous different fields, for example psychology, graphic design, etc that don't typically lead to jobs in science.
Anyhow, this is not a doom-gloom article on science, rather the opposite.
Uh the title of the article is where are the science majors not the psych majors. Also the article is about STEM specifically.
The demeanor of the article I'd describe as clueless. The main arguments are that there is a science shortage as a result of Americans being too stupid for science and the education system not inspiring them when the truth is there is a glut of science majors who's talents go to waste because companies blue-collar salaries inspire them to flee in droves from the field.
It's actually weird they put that telling stat that the majority of science graduates enter unrelated fields and make no effort to explain or discuss it further.
Well, according to your article the students don't want to deal with calc. nor are they math proficient...according to your article. I'm a bit lost with the whole BS degree in a science vs jobs. A BS degree in a science is general. People will travel a host of paths with these general degrees. Getting the degree is not a direct path. I know analytical chemists working in IT and folk with degrees in genetics working in automation. People are all over the place.
And what exactly is leaving science? Does using a BS or BEng in order to get into professional, or graduate school in a different but dependent field, count as leaving science? Would someone count all the "scientists" who get MDs or PharmDs as people who left the field? Would they have been able to get those degrees if it wasn't for their science background?
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Originally Posted by Lou347
According to the article after getting the BS degree they leave science. That means (possibly with the exception of biology) they passed Calc and all the difficult science courses and still left science.
Is calc really that hard? Up until the third semester it seemed pretty water downed and idiot proof?
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Originally Posted by Braunwyn
It doesn't mean that all these people are in your boat. Heck, when the time comes I want to open my own campground. That doesn't mean I'm not finding success, rather I have other interests.
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Originally Posted by user_id
The article actually doesn't say anything about science degrees, rather people with a BS. You can get a BS in numerous different fields, for example psychology, graphic design, etc that don't typically lead to jobs in science.
Anyhow, this is not a doom-gloom article on science, rather the opposite.
What the definition of "scientist" seems to be is the most important theme of this thread. Personally, I consider a PhD or MD as entry level scientists outside of engineering in which I consider MS (depending on field) to be the lowest entry level. People with a BS "leaving the field" without any permanent work positions are not actually leaving the field. When they get professional degrees that they wouldn't have without their scientific training I have to wonder what that is counted for?
What the definition of "scientist" seems to be is the most important theme of this thread. Personally, I consider a PhD or MD as entry level scientists
So according to you Braunwyn isn't a real scientist.
I'd say you just illustrated another problem with science, too many arrogant type A personalities in the field.
I'd say the person with a BS in the lab all day setting up the experiments, troubleshooting the experiments and equipment, pouring over and interpreting the data is more of a scientist than the Ph. D that sits in his office all day writing grant proposals, lecturing students, and going to faculty mettings.
Uh the title of the article is where are the science majors not the psych majors. Also the article is about STEM specifically.
What is your point? The article states that:
"more than half of those with bachelor of science degrees still enter careers having nothing to do with science"
It does not state that "those with a degree in STEM still...". But naturally you guys just inject whatever you want into articles despite the fact that they clearly say other things.
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Originally Posted by MSchemist80
The demeanor of the article I'd describe as clueless.
You can describe it however you wish, but the fact remains that it is an article stating the opposite of what you two what to believe. Yet...oddly it was posted in support of Lou's view. Clearly, you guys don't read what you post.
Seriously though, with the way you guys carry yourself here its no surprise that you did not make it in science.
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Originally Posted by MSchemist80
It's actually weird they put that telling stat that the majority of science graduates enter unrelated fields and make no effort to explain or discuss it further.
What is telling is that you continue to interpret it as "science graduates" instead of what was actually stated, namely people with a bachelors of science which includes numerous degree programs many of which are only loosely related to science. Regardless, most science programs are general so one should expect a decent number of people to go into non-science fields.
And what exactly is leaving science? Does using a BS or BEng in order to get into professional, or graduate school in a different but dependent field, count as leaving science? Would someone count all the "scientists" who get MDs or PharmDs as people who left the field? Would they have been able to get those degrees if it wasn't for their science background?
Yes, I think so and it lends to these confusing arguments. As has been mentioned in this thread, scientists that move up the ladder to mgt or business (thinking patent work) are probably considered to have left "the field" and it's an inaccurate assessment.
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What the definition of "scientist" seems to be is the most important theme of this thread. Personally, I consider a PhD or MD as entry level scientists outside of engineering in which I consider MS (depending on field) to be the lowest entry level.
I think it depends on what the person is doing. I wouldn't consider an MD that is not engaged in research a scientist. A PhD in the sciences? Eh, maybe since research was a requirement for the degree. Once a scientist always a scientist? I don't know, maybe.
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People with a BS "leaving the field" without any permanent work positions are not actually leaving the field. When they get professional degrees that they wouldn't have without their scientific training I have to wonder what that is counted for?
Yes, this is a good point.
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Originally Posted by Lou347
So according to you Braunwyn isn't a real scientist.
I don't think he's saying that, tho, I am about as entry level as a scientist can get in title and pay. As far as research goes there is little difference as best as I can tell.
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I'd say the person with a BS in the lab all day setting up the experiments, troubleshooting the experiments and equipment, pouring over and interpreting the data is more of a scientist than the Ph. D that sits in his office all day writing grant proposals, lecturing students, and going to faculty mettings.
Before I started working in industry I didn't know that a BS could be a scientist, but, while probably rare, there are folk doing it. One of my colleagues just moved to a position in project management (prized positions in my co) and she only has a BS, tho, from John Hopkins. She's super organized and motivated.
Seriously though, with the way you guys carry yourself here its no surprise that you did not make it in science.
I can see how you would be perfect for science especially academic research. You just discount any data you don't like and cherry pick the stuff you do that supports your claims. Just like the crappy labs I saw in grad school do anything to get a paper. Anyone who has anything negative to say about the farce that is science in this country you dismiss as a hack. You cling to BLS data and the propaganda like it is some perverted gospel and anything to the contrary is herasy.
You are quite a blind and arrogant little creature and I pity you.
The article is perfect example. They wonder why americans and even science graduates aren't flocking to science careers and postulate that they aren't smart enough or aren't inspired early on.
The truth is Americans aren't to stupid for science careers, they are too smart for them. The economic calculation is obvious spend 50k+ and 6 years for an unstable benefitless job that pays on the same scale as a garbage man or go into business where hard-work and inteligence are rewarded monetarily.
OK, it’s official. A new study funded by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation has now confirmed what professors have been saying privately for years: the brightest American students aren’t going into science and engineering careers nearly as often as they used to.
But the reason is not, as some people say, that young Americans lack the smarts or the skills to succeed in those fields. Instead, it appears that longstanding U.S. policies have destroyed the incentives that used to attract many of the nation’s best young minds into science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (the so-called STEM fields). And that means that as the United States faces increasing technological and scientific competition from abroad, the country isn’t getting the full benefit of the brainpower it is paying to educate.
“It’s a labor market story,” not an education story, says one of the report’s authors, Harold Salzman, of the Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers University. Rather than staying with STEM for graduate studies or a first job, many of our most able college graduates are now opting out of the pipeline that the nation used to count on to carry gifted students into STEM careers.
But the new study reveals an ominous trend among the scientifically gifted. Although the numbers of young Americans studying STEM in high school and college are as strong as ever, the very best of those students, as indicated by their SAT scores and college grade point averages, are less likely than in decades past to stay in STEM when they leave college.
I don't think it's these people opting out of $12/hr jobs. These folk are opting out of the 60-100k/yr jobs for greener pastures...like my ex, a Brown grad in CS, who is making bank with his own co doing patent work.
You just discount any data you don't like and cherry pick the stuff you do that supports your claims.
This is a great description of what you're doing.
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Originally Posted by Lou347
You cling to BLS data and the propaganda like it is some perverted gospel and anything to the contrary is herasy.
No, rather I consider the BLS data to be a valid source of data on careers. You know, opposed to believing its setup as a big conspiracy to get kids to major in science.
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Originally Posted by Lou347
They wonder why americans and even science graduates aren't flocking to science careers and postulate that they aren't smart enough or aren't inspired early on.
Yes they do wonder, its an important question. The article says nothing about Americans being too stupid for science. The issue of inspiration is a general societal issue, American society does not place a high amount of value on science and this undoubtedly effects kids view of it. But pay plays a role as well, over the last decade the financial industry (and other rent-seeking industries) grew dramatically. But this tread was only a temporarily distortion of the credit bubble, since the financial crisis started it has been reversing. Today, the soup du jour is health care,
Anyhow, Americans are going to have to get back to making things, obviously a big part of that is STEM.
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