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Old 07-10-2012, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,649,280 times
Reputation: 1681

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Big difference between a spanking/paddling and "beating" a child.

I have a good friend who, along with his wife, decided that corporal punishment was not to be used in their household. I watched their kids grow up speaking to their parents in a manner that would have gotten mine slapped into the next county. The oldest boy was just convicted of a felony and is in jail where I am certain he's discovering real violence. The younger daughter is a tattooed pothead and mother of two illigitimate kids.

"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" Proverbs 15:24
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
553 posts, read 1,413,849 times
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Beating children? No way. It shouldn't be tolerated.

However, in the absence of corporal punishment, teachers and school administrators need SOME way to uphold accepteable standards. Right now, they don't have it. Do you know what some of the first things kids learn in public education? They learn that they don't need to do homework, don't need to participate in the learning experience, and don't need to behave in a civil manner, yet they'll still advance from grade to grade. There should be minimum acceptable standards to move from 3rd grade to 4th, or from 7th grade to 8th. These standards should include an acceptable ability to read, perform basic Math functions, and behave like a reasonable person. Until schools have the ability to establish and enforce standards, the kids will be in charge.
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:24 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 4,695,641 times
Reputation: 5357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
Big difference between a spanking/paddling and "beating" a child.

I have a good friend who, along with his wife, decided that corporal punishment was not to be used in their household. I watched their kids grow up speaking to their parents in a manner that would have gotten mine slapped into the next county. The oldest boy was just convicted of a felony and is in jail where I am certain he's discovering real violence. The younger daughter is a tattooed pothead and mother of two illigitimate kids.

"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes" Proverbs 15:24
"'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves." Leviticus 25:44.

Using religion to justify behavior that is obviously immoral does not give you the right to proclaim divine guidance. If you want to declare biblical scripture as justification for a felony, you might as well remember that your have biblical justification to go enslave your neighbors from other countries.

Neither does a single example of one pair of children growing up poorly prove that if they had been beaten they would have behaved better. If I see a parent slap their child in public, I will restrain them and call the cops. Golden rule to children: Don't do to your kids what you don't want me to do to you.

I do believe that we have each found a person with which we can agree on virtually nothing except a preference for lower taxes and gun rights.

PS. Bob, where do you draw the line that separates "paddling" from "beating". So far you've allowed for using a large stick and slapping them in the face.
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,822 posts, read 8,829,981 times
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You have to understand Davemess...those so inclined have to repeat the mantra over and over, regardless of whether there is logic. It's something all political groups do. Mantra over logic. And that kind of thinking always stalls progress at solving problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davemess10 View Post
So your house has been robbed multiple times in the best place on earth?

I'm failing to see the connection between being upset about having no one show up to report your crime and not funding more police officers who could do that exact thing.
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:55 AM
 
808 posts, read 1,174,284 times
Reputation: 2074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
I have a good friend who, along with his wife, decided that corporal punishment was not to be used in their household. I watched their kids grow up speaking to their parents in a manner that would have gotten mine slapped into the next county. The oldest boy was just convicted of a felony and is in jail where I am certain he's discovering real violence.
One can discipline children just fine thank you without ever touching them in violence. My father (who like most fathers had "issues") never once in his life touched me but man that guy kept me in fear of his unpredictable verbal explosions, and he made it obvious I could mostly avoid them by getting straight A's in school. Presto - one Phi Beta Kappa college graduate who was physically disciplined exactly zero times. Now I have my own pre-teen boys I don't hit or physically discipline and never will. Do they dang well know they BETTER be respectful of other people, do their best in school, mind their mother even when I'm not there, etc, etc, etc? You better believe they know these things or else they'll have me to deal with, and not in the good way they've learned to FAR prefer. So, physical punishment/abuse is just simple laziness at best, cruelty at worst. As for your "unspanked children go to jail" story, I'd bet you $5 if you polled every incarcerated male in the US, you'd find far, far, far more who were physically hit as children than those who were not.
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,822 posts, read 8,829,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
Beating children? No way. It shouldn't be tolerated.

However, in the absence of corporal punishment, teachers and school administrators need SOME way to uphold accepteable standards. Right now, they don't have it. Do you know what some of the first things kids learn in public education? They learn that they don't need to do homework, don't need to participate in the learning experience, and don't need to behave in a civil manner, yet they'll still advance from grade to grade. There should be minimum acceptable standards to move from 3rd grade to 4th, or from 7th grade to 8th. These standards should include an acceptable ability to read, perform basic Math functions, and behave like a reasonable person. Until schools have the ability to establish and enforce standards, the kids will be in charge.
Many schools fulfill all the responsibilities you mention. Many do not. Just don't lump all schools together.
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Old 07-10-2012, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Colorado
9,684 posts, read 6,242,757 times
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Seriously...kids don't come with instructions and no two kids, no parents, no social culture, no genetic set, etc etc...are completely identical. Many parents do the best they know how with the tools they understand. Most of them love their kids and want to do right by them. Some kids will grow up to be great, and some will grow up not so great, and some will blame or credit their parents and some won't, and you just never know. I've seen kids with married parents in the upper-middle income bracket, nice homes and whatnot, wind up absolutely horrific and wild and irresponsible. I've seen all sorts of results from all sorts of families. I personally found it appropriate to physically spank my boys between about ages 2-5 (especially 3) when they could not be reasoned with and needed in a very primal and basic way to understand that their actions had consequences. Otherwise I would have had wild little animals who ran all over me. Spankings were very, very rare though. We got to a point where I could simply ask, "Do you need a spanking?" And the behavior would stop. It is, in my opinion, counterproductive and wrong to continue a power struggle on a physical level with kids much older than that. I find it more effective to have them do extra chores, and/or to lose priveledges. Often they will lose something, and have to work very, very hard to get it back.

That said, if I had a nickel for every adult who was not only a Satanist or Pagan but also had a lot of weird toxic life issues (bad relationships, poor decisions, lack of judgment, etc) who proceeded to inform me that they had once attended a private religious school (often Catholic)...well...I'd have enough money to buy lunch. I am absolutely not for corporal punishment by anyone except a parent, ever. Besides, by the point kids are in school they're generally past the age where it makes sense as a corrective measure, IMO.
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Old 07-10-2012, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
583 posts, read 1,299,295 times
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Story after story out there of punks in schools disrespecting other kids, teachers, bus drivers and bus monitors. Yes, there is a huge problem...

My daughter just graduated High School #3 out of over 300 kids with a 4.1 GPA and will be attending CSU this fall (Honors Program). Story after story, she would tell about kids ridiculing teachers in class, fighting, mocking, bullying, etc. Punishment...none! No detention (what's that?), no suspensions, no nothing. It is a huge problem... I'm not saying teachers should beat the kids, but teachers do need more tools in their toolbox to enforce standards. Kids break rules because they can and because there is no punishment. This stems from home and infects others in the school system.

I raised both of my daughters to be respectful, refer to their elders as Mr. and Mrs., say please and thank you, do your best at everything you do, do your chores and never bully anyone. They didn't learn it in school...they learned it when they were 2, 3, 4, 5 years old and up. When they messed up, I corrected them, until they changed their behavior. Both of my daughters would be the first to say that they are glad they have a parent who cares and takes the time to look out for their best interest.

Now, my oldest is off to college with 4 scholarships and majoring in Social Work, because she wants to help others...I couldn't be more proud of her. My youngest starts High School next month and is excited about her future.

We all can point fingers as much as we want...to a system, a school, a teacher, others, etc., but the biggest single factor is parenting. In my case, I was a single parent for some time and did it on my own. Yes, it's tough, but so is life... I hold my girls accountable and I expect their teachers to hold them accountable as well.
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Old 07-10-2012, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,822 posts, read 8,829,981 times
Reputation: 18244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt007 View Post
...

My daughter just graduated High School #3 out of over 300 kids with a 4.1 GPA ...
I'm not familiar with a system where you can get a 4.1 GPA. Tell me about it. Thanks.
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:02 PM
 
Location: 80904 West siiiiiide!
2,864 posts, read 7,090,587 times
Reputation: 1543
There's nothing wrong with spanking children, beating them is something different altogether and I don't condone that. I got my ass whipped alot when I was a kid, I'm here to tell you, I deserved every single one of them. It's what help mold me into a happy, well adjusted adult.

I'm no murderer or rapist or whatever. Sometimes, kids just need to be swatted on the ass, because nothing else will get through to them.
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