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We? We Who? Would be nice to have a better transit system in Colorado Springs. There have been some improvements, bringing back Saturday and Sunday service. Cos covers a huge area. What's wrong with being able to use public transit or complement bikes and cars with a bus?
We? We Who? Would be nice to have a better transit system in Colorado Springs. There have been some improvements, bringing back Saturday and Sunday service. Cos covers a huge area. What's wrong with being able to use public transit or complement bikes and cars with a bus?
Nothing wrong with that. But it all comes down to "Who will pay for it?"
Colorado Springs taxpayers are not noted for paying for the other guy.
Even themselves, which is why they've been known to bypass taxes for essential services. Some of the homes that burned in the Black Forest fire could have been saved with the vacant CSFD spots.
To Mollygee: I don't mind having bus service if the tickets cover the cost of operations. That will never happen without an enormous volume of people that have no option except to use the bus because it requires lots of riders and high ticket prices.
I am opposed to being forced to pay for bus service that I have no need for. IMO pretty much no one actually uses a bus to compliment a car. They may use it to compliment having a bike, but not a car. On the East coast, that would happen. The infrastructure for cars sucks but it is very good for transit, so you would want to use a car when you were away from the city and transit in the city. The east coast is fundamentally the opposite of COS.
I favor diversity in pretty much everything. That includes diversity in city options. Allow a few cities to exist that don't force their residents to buy a bus service that most of them won't use. If someone really wants a bus service, there are hundreds of other choices. Lets not force every city to be the same. As you mentioned, COS covers a huge area, which is precisely the antithesis of what makes a bus system work. Because the area is so large, relatively few people need to go from the same point A to the same point B, which results in low ridership. When the system can move quickly with several stops in ultra high population areas, like New York, the rail and bus system works incredibly well. You'll find it is the very high population density areas which have sufficient numbers of people needing roughly the same trip that have enough ridership to support the system.
No. No new jobs in the Springs, very disappointing
I would go North toward a metropolitan area unless you are military and even then DOD jobs are sacred.
To Mollygee: I don't mind having bus service if the tickets cover the cost of operations. That will never happen without an enormous volume of people that have no option except to use the bus because it requires lots of riders and high ticket prices.
I am opposed to being forced to pay for bus service that I have no need for. IMO pretty much no one actually uses a bus to compliment a car. They may use it to compliment having a bike, but not a car. On the East coast, that would happen. The infrastructure for cars sucks but it is very good for transit, so you would want to use a car when you were away from the city and transit in the city. The east coast is fundamentally the opposite of COS.
I favor diversity in pretty much everything. That includes diversity in city options. Allow a few cities to exist that don't force their residents to buy a bus service that most of them won't use. If someone really wants a bus service, there are hundreds of other choices. Lets not force every city to be the same. As you mentioned, COS covers a huge area, which is precisely the antithesis of what makes a bus system work. Because the area is so large, relatively few people need to go from the same point A to the same point B, which results in low ridership. When the system can move quickly with several stops in ultra high population areas, like New York, the rail and bus system works incredibly well. You'll find it is the very high population density areas which have sufficient numbers of people needing roughly the same trip that have enough ridership to support the system.
Do you know why RTD in Denver is expanding? And other transit systems operate better? It's citizens are taxed!!!! This is why Springs will never progress beyond what it is, no one will look out beyond what is good for themselves. This is a perfect example of the mindset of most people in Springs "I want it, I just don't want to pay for it."
I understand exactly why. We are in perfect agreement that RTD would expand because the citizens are being taxed to force them to pay for it. We are also in agreement that it is something that won't happen in the Springs, which is why the area is a paradise for people that don't want to pay for those things.
Having government is like having one person that goes shopping for a group home. Everyone has to pay into it and they get only the things that the shopping person decided to buy. By having hundreds of cities across the country people have an opportunity to find one where they are okay with the shopping list. Despite that, we still have people clamor that every shopping list absolutely must have a bus and to heck with anyone that wants to find a single option without paying for a bus. The notion that noone should be allowed to have a city that doesn't force residents to buy a bus is absurd. Why not let people that don't want the bus have their own city where they don't buy the bus?
The last thing I would want to see for the Springs is it "progress" into being a crappy tax heavy version of itself. The argument that "a bus is good for society so hold them down and beat them until they pay for it" doesn't fly here. If someone needs a bus, they can live somewhere that has a bus or they can make the market rate for acquiring that service without having it subsidized. People move here, in part, because of the wonderful tax structure.
My mindset is "I don't want it, and I'm not going to [expletive] pay for something I don't want. Stop putting that **** in my cart." I'll pay for a few things I don't use, but I'm not going to intentionally move into a city with high taxes to pay for things I don't want. That would be stupid. In the same manner, I wouldn't sit by and watch the Springs get pushed into being another crappy mid sized city. The fundamental flaw is people from other areas thinking that we "want it but don't want to pay for it", when the fact of the matter is that most of us simply don't want it at all. If it was there and we didn't have to pay for it, we wouldn't object, but we won't have people throwing things in our shopping cart and demanding that we buy them.
Denver is great for being Denver, the Springs is great for being an alternative to Denver. If someone wants bus service as a regular part of their life, they should be focusing on Denver and not the Springs. I believe most people in the Springs have no desire to see the Springs become "small Denver".
Let me be clear, I don't live in Denver. I don't like it. I also lived in Springs for a short while, I didn't like it either. I don't like the mindset of most people there.
The fact is, as a city, you must have certain amenities in order to attract business and people. When you have infrastructure that has a hard time handling what traffic there is (even when I lived there), when you have people who vote down taxes for essential services that lay off police, fire, turn street lights off, and let parks and pools go to waste. Then the same people ***** about the increase in crime, that their children don't have a safe place to play, and wonder where the firefighters are as they watch their homes burn in the several fires recently, you have exactly as you quoted "another crappy mid sized city."
There is a reason the Colorado Rockies pulled their minor league system out of Springs (even if you hate baseball), the facilities weren't up to par. Springs was the very last team in all of minor league baseball to get an affiliate, and the Brewers would not have gone there if they had any other choice.
You have to have things for people to do, you have to have ways for people to get around. You have to keep them safe. You have to have jobs for them. A diverse economy. Look at Detroit, what happened when the auto industry failed? What do you think will happen to Springs if one of the bases shuts down? Pueblo nearly went under in the 80's for the very same thing, having all it's eggs in one basket, it had to diversify. It was shortsighted, as were it's citizens. Springs is in the same situation now. It's a beautiful city, but it's not invincible by any means.
Let me be clear, I don't live in Denver. I don't like it. I also lived in Springs for a short while, I didn't like it either. I don't like the mindset of most people there.
The fact is, as a city, you must have certain amenities in order to attract business and people. When you have infrastructure that has a hard time handling what traffic there is (even when I lived there), when you have people who vote down taxes for essential services that lay off police, fire, turn street lights off, and let parks and pools go to waste. Then the same people ***** about the increase in crime, that their children don't have a safe place to play, and wonder where the firefighters are as they watch their homes burn in the several fires recently, you have exactly as you quoted "another crappy mid sized city."
There is a reason the Colorado Rockies pulled their minor league system out of Springs (even if you hate baseball), the facilities weren't up to par. Springs was the very last team in all of minor league baseball to get an affiliate, and the Brewers would not have gone there if they had any other choice.
You have to have things for people to do, you have to have ways for people to get around. You have to keep them safe. You have to have jobs for them. A diverse economy. Look at Detroit, what happened when the auto industry failed? What do you think will happen to Springs if one of the bases shuts down? Pueblo nearly went under in the 80's for the very same thing, having all it's eggs in one basket, it had to diversify. It was shortsighted, as were it's citizens. Springs is in the same situation now. It's a beautiful city, but it's not invincible by any means.
I understand exactly why. We are in perfect agreement that RTD would expand because the citizens are being taxed to force them to pay for it. We are also in agreement that it is something that won't happen in the Springs, which is why the area is a paradise for people that don't want to pay for those things.
Having government is like having one person that goes shopping for a group home. Everyone has to pay into it and they get only the things that the shopping person decided to buy. By having hundreds of cities across the country people have an opportunity to find one where they are okay with the shopping list. Despite that, we still have people clamor that every shopping list absolutely must have a bus and to heck with anyone that wants to find a single option without paying for a bus. The notion that noone should be allowed to have a city that doesn't force residents to buy a bus is absurd. Why not let people that don't want the bus have their own city where they don't buy the bus?
The last thing I would want to see for the Springs is it "progress" into being a crappy tax heavy version of itself. The argument that "a bus is good for society so hold them down and beat them until they pay for it" doesn't fly here. If someone needs a bus, they can live somewhere that has a bus or they can make the market rate for acquiring that service without having it subsidized. People move here, in part, because of the wonderful tax structure.
My mindset is "I don't want it, and I'm not going to [expletive] pay for something I don't want. Stop putting that **** in my cart." I'll pay for a few things I don't use, but I'm not going to intentionally move into a city with high taxes to pay for things I don't want. That would be stupid. In the same manner, I wouldn't sit by and watch the Springs get pushed into being another crappy mid sized city. The fundamental flaw is people from other areas thinking that we "want it but don't want to pay for it", when the fact of the matter is that most of us simply don't want it at all. If it was there and we didn't have to pay for it, we wouldn't object, but we won't have people throwing things in our shopping cart and demanding that we buy them.
Denver is great for being Denver, the Springs is great for being an alternative to Denver. If someone wants bus service as a regular part of their life, they should be focusing on Denver and not the Springs. I believe most people in the Springs have no desire to see the Springs become "small Denver".
X2!! That is why I also love it here. You want it, YOU pay for it!!
It is usually the "younger" folks , you know, the "kids" that are 26 yrs. old living w/ their folks who feel taxes are never high enough to support their lifestyles. I grew up in Longmont north of Denver and still enjoy the area, but the slower pace of life here is PERFECT.
Plus, Denver is in a huge real estate bubble right now, so that is a huge worry. Lot's of folks moving there for the pot probably, unfortunately they don't like to work too hard so who exactly is buying those houses? Then if you sell you will pay more a new place to live.
Perfect analogy!!
Last edited by huffdiver; 04-04-2015 at 12:01 PM..
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As you mentioned, COS covers a huge area, which is precisely the antithesis of what makes a bus system work. Because the area is so large, relatively few people need to go from the same point A to the same point B, which results in low ridership. When the system can move quickly with several stops in ultra high population areas, like New York, the rail and bus system works incredibly well. You'll find it is the very high population density areas which have sufficient numbers of people needing roughly the same trip that have enough ridership to support the system.
