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Old 08-09-2018, 05:09 PM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,253 posts, read 3,951,390 times
Reputation: 9432

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Quote:
Originally Posted by colobill View Post
"I always carried a bunch of blankets and peanut butter sandwiches which I would bestow upon people huddled in doorways to escape the cold."

"I know whereof I speak."
Aren't you full of yourself.

"Just read the mean spirited replies to BornintheSprings' posts."
Why do you feel the need to make him out to be a victim?
I decided to jump in when he referred to someones response as "that's garbage. I love how anxious he is to spend other people's money, whether they like it or not. So self righteous, and so clueless at the same time.

I choose to help who I want to help, but I don't tell you who and how you must help. That is the difference.

"Why does no one complain about all their tax dollars going to subsidize lazy middle and upper class home owners?"
So you find disdain for the working middle and upper class that contribute to society? I suppose you will accept them when they loose their home for "reasons that they don't always have control of"? But screw them while they are working and productive members of society.

Glad I could disappoint you! Your codependency only allows you to like people you can enable. You must find victims to rescue. It allows you to feel good about yourself. I choose to find hard working people and empower them to become better.
Thank you for sharing.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:28 PM
 
647 posts, read 340,571 times
Reputation: 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by colobill View Post
"Why does no one complain about all their tax dollars going to subsidize lazy middle and upper class home owners?"
So you find disdain for the working middle and upper class that contribute to society? I suppose you will accept them when they loose their home for "reasons that they don't always have control of"? But screw them while they are working and productive members of society.
Well said. We live in a society overrun by sjw’s who seem to hate hard working people.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:08 PM
 
608 posts, read 319,980 times
Reputation: 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by colobill View Post
How can you not know how this relates to Venezuela? You never answered my question about what your plan was when the number of dependants outnumber the number of providers?

If you have volunteered for a while, than you should be able to see how the problem is only getting worse, the more the city tries to help. The Marian House soup kitchen started giving free meals, and the number of the needy grew. The city started putting homeless up in hotel rooms, and the number of needy grew. The city allowed camping, and the number of homeless grew. They spent millions on the Rescue Mission, and the number of homeless have grown. How many units do you want to build for the homeless. 20, 50, 100, 200, 500? It won't be enough!

Your idea sounds great to a lot of lazy people. Why work everyday when borninthesprings is willing to give me a roof over my head? How will people qualify, and how will you prevent people from abusing the system? Will they have a limited time in the units, or can they live in them indefinitely?

I am curious, do you see any possible ways that this may not turn out the way you think? Or are you absolutely convinced you have the solution? I only ask because you are willing to commit others to pay for your plan, even if it goes against their beliefs and ideologies, and it appears that you have done very little research on the social and economic impacts it will have.
You could add a state residency requirement of say at least 5 years, maybe 2, for adults without dependents. Then add waivers for situations where people come to care for an elderly relative, a forced job transfer, etc..

Rehab, skills training, mental health specialists, and places for pets would be included.

I know for some with mental disorders, that when a psychiatrist tries to lower medication levels or a drug change is needed, it can throw them in to a breakdown, leaving them homeless until they are medicated again even if they are receiving SSDI.

I don't particularly like seeing strung out drug addicts passed out in filth underneath the overpass. I'd rather they're tucked away free housing, getting the help they needs and fully believe that APS should intervene.

People going through job loss, divorce, domestic abuse, etc. also need resources that are different than the drug addled and mentally ill.

I disagree with many things from, "borninthesprings," but I do think that their is a more conservative approach to the homeless, that can be paid for, logical and humane.

As a modern society, we should be disgusted with ourselves that we have this problem still.
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
3,786 posts, read 1,465,656 times
Reputation: 2894
Quote:
Originally Posted by abcdefg567 View Post
You could add a state residency requirement of say at least 5 years, maybe 2, for adults without dependents. Then add waivers for situations where people come to care for an elderly relative, a forced job transfer, etc..

Rehab, skills training, mental health specialists, and places for pets would be included.

I know for some with mental disorders, that when a psychiatrist tries to lower medication levels or a drug change is needed, it can throw them in to a breakdown, leaving them homeless until they are medicated again even if they are receiving SSDI.

I don't particularly like seeing strung out drug addicts passed out in filth underneath the overpass. I'd rather they're tucked away free housing, getting the help they needs and fully believe that APS should intervene.

People going through job loss, divorce, domestic abuse, etc. also need resources that are different than the drug addled and mentally ill.

I disagree with many things from, "borninthesprings," but I do think that their is a more conservative approach to the homeless, that can be paid for, logical and humane.

As a modern society, we should be disgusted with ourselves that we have this problem still.
A very good point.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Colorado
9,734 posts, read 6,269,187 times
Reputation: 17549
Ya know, I really don't mind my dollars (tax or charitable contributions) going to help other people. But I do believe that there are things that are truly helpful, and things that aren't. Issues I've got...

1. Transparency. I would love it if any agency, from the government to any tax exempt charity, were subject to independent audit every year by a randomly selected third party organization. Their financials reported in their entirety to the people who pay them. If the numbers don't balance or if we find that the leader(s) of the org are getting a stupid cut of the cash and little really goes to the intended purpose...then people should have the option to stop forking over funding to wasteful or corrupt entities.

2. Flexibility. This is one area in which government programs for the poor really fail hard. I don't know if many here have actually BEEN on any kind of "welfare" program before. I have. In 1999 I was young, cut off from family help, and struggling to handle my new role as a mother at age 20 with a partner who, though stably employed when we met, was showing his colors as a job-hopper and an addict among other things. We were in Cincinnati, OH, and we were barely making it in a sketchy house owned by a man I can only call a "slum lord." Getting public assistance was extremely difficult. I saw people in the welfare office with gold bling, fancy nails, and cell phones when it wasn't something cheap or that everyone had (I sure didn't have one.) But meeting the qualifications...I could barely do and it took a lot of time and effort. The problem with it taking time and effort, going back for appointment after appointment, waiting hours, always needing some new piece of documentation, etc is that yeah...they want you to have a job, but if you have a minimum wage job, and miss work to go to some appointment, you lose that job. Minimum wage, with child care, isn't enough to support a small family with a baby even in a slum. "Get an education and make more!" How? I couldn't afford college. It was a circular situation of "Can't do X because Y, can't do Y because Z, can't do Z because X." The only way out was to get on a Greyhound, abandoning everything we had, and go to another state where my ex had a relative who would help a bit. But back to assistance though, there was one organization that really was a big help. It was a private nonprofit. They assigned me a "case worker" who was almost like a guardian angel. And the main reason it was so helpful, was that she would ask directly, WHAT DO YOU NEED? What helps, right now? If I needed diapers for the baby, she helped with that, a ride to a doctor's appointment, she's got me. Whereas, with government assistance, you either qualify or you don't...and if you do, you may get more than what you really need, but if you don't, you get nothing no matter what you need. A little flexibility goes a very long way. Unfortunately though, that org was not big enough to help very many, I was just a lucky person to know about it.

What broke our poverty and got us stable though, was about 2 months of shelter in a town with a slightly better job market, and a little initial assistance with the cost of childcare. No "office" would hire me to do anything in Cincinnati, I was stuck working at gas stations. In Des Moines, I got temp work that led to a solid job at Wells Fargo.

Hell, you know, just providing a wider range of incomes with subsidized child care for a limited period of time, would probably solve a lot. Childcare costs are no joke. For many years we paid significantly more for that, than for housing.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Colorado
9,734 posts, read 6,269,187 times
Reputation: 17549
Also, one concept of conservatism and capitalism that I push back against, is the idea that everyone who gets and has money, deserves what they are getting and having. The whole "free market" idea can be heckin' stupid sometimes. I don't think that the poor are scamming society more than the rich. Should someone lucky enough to be born into wealth live a life of indolence? Gonna tell me that never happens? Do the wealthiest heads of business and industry, state and power, truly do work that justifies what they get from us? Do they create enough value for society to be worth the wealth they enjoy? In a nation that rewards ENTERTAINERS vastly more than teachers...I think that our priorities on who's got value and who doesn't are more than a bit skewed. I'm sorry but even though I do appreciate the arts and think it's good when someone can make a LIVING doing certain things, when you get to a certain point of celebrity-worship of drugged out degenerate musicians, or somebody who is just really good at throwing a ball around...where we shower them with fame and glory and riches for the mere fact that they entertain us...but we throw tantrums about whether people, even hard-working people providing goods and services we need and want, should be able to have healthcare or housing or food or clean water or a decent education... That's just nuts, ya'll.

If people in certain professions clear more than a certain ceiling, I feel like they should be required to donate the balance to an audited, legit, public serving organization, whether to benefit our planet or less fortunate people. If society rewards your existence with great wealth, I want to know you're worth it to society. And frankly in many cases, I remain unconvinced.
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:02 AM
 
96 posts, read 89,116 times
Reputation: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Also, one concept of conservatism and capitalism that I push back against, is the idea that everyone who gets and has money, deserves what they are getting and having. The whole "free market" idea can be heckin' stupid sometimes. I don't think that the poor are scamming society more than the rich. Should someone lucky enough to be born into wealth live a life of indolence? Gonna tell me that never happens? Do the wealthiest heads of business and industry, state and power, truly do work that justifies what they get from us? Do they create enough value for society to be worth the wealth they enjoy? In a nation that rewards ENTERTAINERS vastly more than teachers...I think that our priorities on who's got value and who doesn't are more than a bit skewed. I'm sorry but even though I do appreciate the arts and think it's good when someone can make a LIVING doing certain things, when you get to a certain point of celebrity-worship of drugged out degenerate musicians, or somebody who is just really good at throwing a ball around...where we shower them with fame and glory and riches for the mere fact that they entertain us...but we throw tantrums about whether people, even hard-working people providing goods and services we need and want, should be able to have healthcare or housing or food or clean water or a decent education... That's just nuts, ya'll.

If people in certain professions clear more than a certain ceiling, I feel like they should be required to donate the balance to an audited, legit, public serving organization, whether to benefit our planet or less fortunate people. If society rewards your existence with great wealth, I want to know you're worth it to society. And frankly in many cases, I remain unconvinced.
It looks like you were dealt some challenges, you worked hard, persevered, and overcame. That is very commendable, not all are willing to struggle and overcome the difficulties we face in life. While I appreciated your first post, your second post looks a little scary. I don't think redistribution of wealth fits anywhere in a productive society. I agree that it seems like some people have more money than I would know what to do with, but that doesn't mean it should be given to me or anyone else. I don't care how much money entertainers or athletes have, because I don't pay for sports or movies channels, I don't buy jerseys, or go to sporting events, or concerts. Other people choose to pay for that, and I don't feel that I or anyone else has right to confiscate that revenue. Anyone who says life should be fair is wrong! Individual responsibility, and individual accountability.

We all make our own way in life, and that can be both rewarding and challenging. The challenging times make us stronger, and help us appreciate the good times. I don't believe in victimizing anyone, but I also don't feel it is the responsibility of anyone else to make my life better, or equal to some minimum standard. I like to think of our world as a perfect place, with the exception of humans. I believe the world would be a better place without humans, therefore I think we should emulate nature more. We always think we are smarter, but the more we intervene, the more rules we make, the more we screw it up!
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:10 AM
 
1,245 posts, read 1,631,290 times
Reputation: 1499
There are so many different reasons for homelessness. Here is one story; seems to me he has plenty of ambition to be mostly rootless and dependent on handouts:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mayakac.../#617bf3af1c6b
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
2,668 posts, read 1,668,301 times
Reputation: 2913
We also need to keep in mind that not all homeless panhandle and not all panhandlers are homeless. There are several people I've seen in my part of town that I know are homeless, yet I have never seen them on a corner. I've also seen some panhandlers get into cars that are the equivalent of my own and drive away from their corner.

I tend to agree with Sonic Spark and abcdefg567 that our priorities, as a society, can be somewhat misplaced. But I also think the system is severely skewed in a manner that does not benefit the average middle class worker who shows up at work everyday, maintains their mortgage, and works to incrementally get ahead. When I look at what I made in 1990 and adjust it for inflation and compare that to what I make now, I have had almost no appreciable wage growth in almost 30 years. I'd like to think I'm little bit smarter than some, but my wage growth is the evidence that seems to point to the contrary.

Compared to the basic high school graduate trying to get by on some basic or even moderately skilled labor jobs and I can see why the homeless and/or panhandling numbers have increase.

I don't think a host of free stuff across the board is necessarily the answer, but I also think that providing some free stuff along the path as a means to get people back on their feet is not a bad thing either.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Colorado
9,734 posts, read 6,269,187 times
Reputation: 17549
Quote:
Originally Posted by colobill View Post
It looks like you were dealt some challenges, you worked hard, persevered, and overcame. That is very commendable, not all are willing to struggle and overcome the difficulties we face in life. While I appreciated your first post, your second post looks a little scary. I don't think redistribution of wealth fits anywhere in a productive society. I agree that it seems like some people have more money than I would know what to do with, but that doesn't mean it should be given to me or anyone else. I don't care how much money entertainers or athletes have, because I don't pay for sports or movies channels, I don't buy jerseys, or go to sporting events, or concerts. Other people choose to pay for that, and I don't feel that I or anyone else has right to confiscate that revenue. Anyone who says life should be fair is wrong! Individual responsibility, and individual accountability.

We all make our own way in life, and that can be both rewarding and challenging. The challenging times make us stronger, and help us appreciate the good times. I don't believe in victimizing anyone, but I also don't feel it is the responsibility of anyone else to make my life better, or equal to some minimum standard. I like to think of our world as a perfect place, with the exception of humans. I believe the world would be a better place without humans, therefore I think we should emulate nature more. We always think we are smarter, but the more we intervene, the more rules we make, the more we screw it up!
Thing is, I did persevere and overcome, I had a will to make life better and it took years of work. However...without the help I got, I wouldn't have survived the hardest time of it. Literally. I was malnourished and underweight, walking through a ghetto to get free bread to survive on. When I waited tables for a little while, I was scrounging unfinished food off of plates. I was too hungry to care. Granted, as I said, the most useful help came from private charity, rather than the government. Well. Except for the medical care. Because if I hadn't had access to health care through the state when my first kid was born, I guess I'd have had to either give birth at home with no help and hope for the best, or maybe incur a huge heap of debt I could never hope to pay. My minimum wage jobs did not provide any health insurance at the time.

I know we won't see eye to eye as you are hardly the first person I know who holds this position. I respect that you believe this and you stand where you stand. But I don't think we can make the populace be smart about what they support with their dollars, and sometimes the masses make weird choices. Like prioritizing sportsball guy over schoolteacher (my opinion.) The best answer I can think of is to redistribute wealth...somewhat...but then it comes back to HOW--because I have serious trust issues when it comes to simply taking tax money and trusting the government to administer it for the betterment of society. I'd be down for some choice, for those required to give back, in where they can direct their money. But I cannot defend and root for the wealthiest, especially those who can take advantage of corrupt collusions with government to protect and grow their fortunes at the expense of others...I mean it nearly seems like there are people who want to protect the rights of those at the top out of a notion that one day it will be them, and they don't want anybody interfering with their path to the riches they might one day have. I just don't buy that. The whole "American Dream" that one day with all the plucky hard work and ingenuity, I'll be rich too...it's an illusion for almost everyone.

I find it ridiculous that in this country, so many people worship those above them and spit on those below.

And I do think that a society that utterly scorns their least fortunate, denies them any compassion or "handouts" of any kind, and allows free reign for cunning connivers to amass limitless wealth concentrated in the hands of a few...look, I don't want to be another country with miles and miles of shack cities where people crouch under corrugated sheets of rusting metal. Yes, we have opportunities here that maybe some nations do not...which is why I think that part of any assistance programs should include training and help in becoming self-sufficient whenever possible. That's why my first post on this thread was to plug Job Corps. Yeah, it's government funded and those kids get a couple of years where the taxpayers are supporting them, but they do hard work in area infrastructure, they fight fires and things like that, and they get training in a trade and help getting a job when they're out.

But what a lot of folks maybe don't know, is that public assistance nowadays, actually IS geared toward getting people working and independent. People on it have to attend classes, and try to get work, and take jobs that they're offered. We have been working for a long time to make the "Welfare Queen" thing an impossibility.

Of course the obvious thing to me, after being an Army wife for a while, was that it is in the government's benefit for there to be plenty of poor young adults from poor families. The military is a pretty sure path out of that, for anyone who can make the most of it. The pay and benefits are no joke, better than what most 18-25 year olds are going to find without a degree. They'll never have to draft anyone again, so long as it's expensive and difficult to get educated, health insurance isn't a guarantee, and buying a home is a wild dream due to hefty down payment requirements. Kids, just join the military! You'll probably survive, you get loads of neat bennies, and hopefully your body and mind won't be too broken for you to enjoy them!
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