Thinking about 4 x 4s.... (Colorado Springs: buy, camping, live)

[BlueSimple]

I was for a time a certified Jeep, Honda and Chevrolet car salesman, though for less than a year because I like to be able to sleep at night. Personally I think calling anyone that buys a new truck even 'pretty much' a moron is a bit of a stretch, no matter your locale. There are absolutely pros and cons to a new versus pre-owned vehicle. Neither is the perfect choice for everyone. As for myself, I have and will again with no regrets.

[ryanek9freak]

The only way I'd ever buy a new vehicle is if I had a rediculous amount of money lying around.

[TheBeach]

Originally Posted by ryanek9freak

The only way I'd ever buy a new vehicle is if I had a rediculous amount of money lying around.

You have the experience and knowledge to look over a used vehicle and know if it's a lemon, but most people probably couldn't tell the difference between a loose oil drain plug and serious engine leak.

How do you feel about those "certified used" vehicles? Think it's worth the extra money for the average folk?

[jazzlover]

Let me share a few of my "How to buy a used 4x4" tricks that have worked well for me.

1. Rental fleets can be a good source. Most car rental companies have provisions that prohibit their customers from taking the vehicle off-road. Yes, that's right. So, for the most part rental 4x4's have had mild use. The rental companies are also pretty good about maintenance and keeping vehicles clean. The disadvantage is that a rental 4x4 may not be equipped with all of the skid plates, etc. for hard backcountry use. Fortunately, in most case, these are pretty inexpensive to add later.

2. Buy a 4x4 in one of the metro areas. You'll have a lot better chance of getting one that has not had arduous off-road use. In the rural areas, people tend to actually use a 4x4 for what it was designed for--so those may be more worn. The caveat to this is that if the 4x4 has not been lubricated and maintained well, there is risk no matter where the vehicle comes from. Getting an independent mechanic to look the vehicle over before you buy it is not a bad idea.

3. Avoid exotic makes and models. Forget the Mercedes, BMW's, Lexus's, Land Rovers, etc. Some of them are very good vehicles, but if one ever breaks down away from the metro areas, you may be hundreds of miles from a dealer or parts source for the vehicle. Big Three models, Toyotas, Nissans, and Subarus should be fine. Anything else should warrant a look as to where you will be driving it, and if there is a dealer/parts network to support it out in the sticks. This is especially true if you LIVE out in the sticks. Nothing like having to drive your fancy off-make 4x4 400 miles roundtrip to get a recall fixed under warranty . . .

4. Avoid heavily modified vehicles. Mild lifts, etc. are probably OK, but avoid radically customized vehicles. You will pay for a bunch of extra crap on those that usually does little to make the vehicle more capable (may make it even less capable) and may also compromise the reliability of the vehicle.

5. Avoid vehicles over 15-20 years old. While many of the "older generation" 4x4's were actually more off-road capable than much of what is sold now, the chance of buying a vehicle with reliability issues grows with age. Parts availability may be problem with some older models. Also, older vehicles that are carbureted can be a serious problem--especially in Colorado. The gasoline sold today has a much lower evaporation point than older carbureted vehicles were designed for. At Colorado's higher altitude, that makes those vehicles much more prone to things like vapor locking, poor warm weather running, etc.

6. Read up on reliability and performance data before you buy and know what you are looking for. I don't always agree with some of Consumer Reports' vehicle test articles, but I've found their vehicle reliability ratings to be, well, pretty reliable. Edmunds.com can be another good source of information.

7. Before you buy, ask yourself, "Am I really going to use this vehicle enough to justify the additional fuel, maintenance, insurance, etc. expenses that a 4x4 usually demands?" If the answer is no, then rethink your wants. Make no mistake, a 4x4 can be a money pit compared to an ordinary sedan.

[ryanek9freak]

Originally Posted by TheBeach

You have the experience and knowledge to look over a used vehicle and know if it's a lemon, but most people probably couldn't tell the difference between a loose oil drain plug and serious engine leak.

How do you feel about those "certified used" vehicles? Think it's worth the extra money for the average folk?

Certified used is great, but it shouldn't mean the car is worth more money than one that isn't.

Jazz, I agree with everything you said, however, if you buy, lets say a used Wrangler and plan on modifying it, I'd actually look for a used one that already has been modified, with a lift and big wheel/tire combos.

You'll save a ton of money over what it would cost you to do it yourself.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by ryanek9freak

Jazz, I agree with everything you said, however, if you buy, lets say a used Wrangler and plan on modifying it, I'd actually look for a used one that already has been modified, with a lift and big wheel/tire combos.

You'll save a ton of money over what it would cost you to do it yourself.

That assumes that the lift was done correctly. My experience has been that quite often they have not been. The resulting driveline damage, etc. is sometimes why the vehicle is up for sale. Gets back to that "having a independent mechanic look at it" thing. I'm also not a fan of radical lifts (6" or more) and monster tires. They may make sense for running in swamps in Louisiana or Florida, but a mega-lift that raises a 4x4's center of gravity is asking for a rollover on an off-camber trail. I've seen quite a few "macho" lifted 4x4's laid over on their sides or worse in the backcountry on trails that I've traversed easily in fairly stock 4x4's. If a 4x4 has a true running ground clearance of 8 /12 - 9 1/2 inches at the lowest point, that is more than enough for most any Colorado trail. I've run most of them with around that--some in vehicles with less. A lot of the "big tire/big lift" thing is just a gambit to sell expensive stuff that the marketers have done their best to make people think is "cool." All sizzle (albeit expensive "sizzle") and no steak.

[ryanek9freak]

Well yeah anything over 6 inches is just getting stupid. I think on a Wrangler, a 4 inch lift and 33 inch tires is plenty for whatever you might encounter around here.

Add a winch, and you're damn near invinceable. J/k. That being said, I have a stock height YJ with a winch and good tires, and i've never gotten stuck, ever. Check it out.

[TheBeach]

Originally Posted by ryanek9freak

... That being said, I have a stock height YJ with a winch and good tires, and i've never gotten stuck, ever. Check it out.

Sometimes we get these 4 to 6 foot snowdrifts on our 1,000 feet of dirt driveway out here in Peyton. It'll start off with 2-3" of snow on the driveway, then the winds will scream and yell and the next day it can be as high as 6 feet deep. Naturally the driveway is just south of the rolling hills which create huge drifts. The drifts outside the garage can be as high as 10 feet or more.

I have never been able to get my 2001 Toyota 4Runner through that fresh snowdrift. Tried several times and got stuck each time. The car just sinks into the fresh snow. Even got my Kubota L4630 tractor stuck trying to get the 4Runner unstuck. That was a really bad day

And yes, I have been putting up snow fences of late, but haven't had any real good storms to test them out.

[LWilson68]

OK, I'll throw my 2 cents in here ...

I bought a set of Dunlop Graspic snow tires for my Corolla, and they did GREAT. I felt safe with those tires, and they seemed to do well in the snow. I use past tense because like an idiot I left the tires on over the summer and wore the treads down. But I plan to buy a new set next month or so.

Any other recommendations for good snow tires -- studded or non?

[SheridanL]

Well, that pretty much settles it! I guess I won't be driving the "box" in the snow!! I wish I could get higher profile tires so it would be at least 5 inches off the ground! Dangit!
In Florida (Vero Beach anyway)..if you weren't a Lexus, Mercedes, or Jaguar...you see XB's everywhere. There were tons of them, mostly tatooed..really!
Now I'm standing out like a banana in a bowl of grapes!!!!Sheesh!