Springs 2010 budget, attempted MASSIVE tax increase with Prop 2C (month to, schools)

[COflower]

Originally Posted by sterlinggirl

If you read down to the end of the article, it says the higher taxes would have derailed economic development, but service reductions aren't expected to put off potential employers.

People tend to forget that taxes are as much of a behavior modification tool as a way to collect money. When you increase taxes on cigarettes, the reason stated for the tax increase is to stop people from smoking, right? When you increase property taxes on businesses, the same element of behavior modification would encourage businesses and people to relocate out of COS rather than into it.

Well said.

[Bullitt007]

Originally Posted by sterlinggirl

If you read down to the end of the article, it says the higher taxes would have derailed economic development, but service reductions aren't expected to put off potential employers.

People tend to forget that taxes are as much of a behavior modification tool as a way to collect money. When you increase taxes on cigarettes, the reason stated for the tax increase is to stop people from smoking, right? When you increase property taxes on businesses, the same element of behavior modification would encourage businesses and people to relocate out of COS rather than into it.

So true...pretty hard to argue that fact! Higher taxes would have definately pushed more businesses out and ultimately hurt CS much worse.

[Josseppie]

To much taxes is bad at the same time to few taxes is just as bad so the key is to find a happy medium. I don't think the Springs has found that and if you want to be successful in the 21st century you guys need to find it.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by Bullitt007

So true...pretty hard to argue that fact! Higher taxes would have definately pushed more businesses out and ultimately hurt CS much worse.

Agree, to a point. Higher taxes can only push businesses out of town if there are lower taxes a few blocks away, i.e., in the adjacent county. This issue makes the current situation worse than it has to be. If the city of COLO SPGS and El Paso County had the SAME sales and property taxes, then the issue of retailers moving over the line into the county would go away, things would be a LOT more rational, nor would the city shortfall in tax revenues be so severe, and it's the city which is the magnet that cause most of us to be here. It's not just a local issue; there is irrationality in tax codes and policies all over the country and many jurisdictions tend to play "beggar thy neighbor" with their policies.

[Arrby]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

Agree, to a point. Higher taxes can only push businesses out of town if there are lower taxes a few blocks away, i.e., in the adjacent county.

Not true. At any given time the amount of money available to be spent is fixed. If sales taxes are higher, then the net amount of sales to retailers collectively will be smaller. This will cause a certain number of retail businesses to be "pushed out" into oblivion. Also, an increase in local sales taxes creates an additional incentive to shop mail order or on line where sales taxes are not collected at all, again reducing the amount of net dollars spent locally.

It is often forgotten (or ignored) that as sales taxes go higher and higher the incentive for fraud becomes higher and higher. Few retail businesses enjoy a 5% net profit margin. If sales taxes become large enough then it may be quite profitable to sell goods at cost and under report the sales taxes due.

There is only 100% - that is all there is. When government asks for more taxes they are saying to us that they should have more, and you should have less. Perhaps it is worth that to you, perhaps not.

[vlcreations]

Originally Posted by Maynerd

Well stated, Mike. And the people who voted down 2C will certainly blame our "inept" city leaders when the parks dry out and the pools are closed.

Well, I ride the buses. Unlike the wealthier posters who post here and live in the more affluent parts of town I don't have the luxury of owning a car. Yes they are cutting bus services-it's a given(they are ALWAYS screwing the bus riders over). I don't blame our city leaders, I blame those who have it yet are unwilling to let a little of it go to help others who are not as fortunate. And I'm not talking about me-I'm talking about those people who live on a shoestring budget, the elderly or disabled who either can't drive or can't afford to and who depend on the buses to get them where they are going. They depend on the bus services so they can scrape out a living. So think about THEM the next time you're sipping your $3+ cup of latte from Starbucks and getting into you Cadillac Escapade SUV and then going home to your $300,000+ home in some other affluent neighborhood. I hope you never have to worry about where your next meal is coming from or how you are going to get to work. Could happen though-most of you have overextended yourselves so you never know when YOUR job might be axed and your high living lifestyles might come to a screeching halt. Then you'll be complaining about how lousy the bus service is here in the Springs.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by vlcreations

Well, I ride the buses. Unlike the wealthier posters who post here and live in the more affluent parts of town I don't have the luxury of owning a car. Yes they are cutting bus services-it's a given(they are ALWAYS screwing the bus riders over). I don't blame our city leaders, I blame those who have it yet are unwilling to let a little of it go to help others who are not as fortunate. And I'm not talking about me-I'm talking about those people who live on a shoestring budget, the elderly or disabled who either can't drive or can't afford to and who depend on the buses to get them where they are going. They depend on the bus services so they can scrape out a living. So think about THEM the next time you're sipping your $3+ cup of latte from Starbucks and getting into you Cadillac Escapade SUV and then going home to your $300,000+ home in some other affluent neighborhood. I hope you never have to worry about where your next meal is coming from or how you are going to get to work. Could happen though-most of you have overextended yourselves so you never know when YOUR job might be axed and your high living lifestyles might come to a screeching halt. Then you'll be complaining about how lousy the bus service is here in the Springs.

If bus riders actually paid fares that are high enough to make bus service self-sustaining, then they'd have good bus service. If you think that having others refuse to pay for your transportation costs is being "screwed over," then you're in for some major disappointment. You're not entitled to my money to pay your expenses simply because you have less than I do.

If you can't afford the costs of transportation, move closer to the things you need. I think there'll be LOTS of people doing just that in the decades ahead. It's not a basic human right to be able to live wherever you want and send the bill to others.

[Postal]

Originally Posted by Bob from down south

If bus riders actually paid fares that are high enough to make bus service self-sustaining, then they'd have good bus service. If you think that having others refuse to pay for your transportation costs is being "screwed over," then you're in for some major disappointment. You're not entitled to my money to pay your expenses simply because you have less than I do.

If you can't afford the costs of transportation, move closer to the things you need. I think there'll be LOTS of people doing just that in the decades ahead. It's not a basic human right to be able to live wherever you want and send the bill to others.

I was going to post something similar. I know too many people who complain about not having this and not having that and how I should support them. Unfortunately, I know they have made and continue to make mistakes in their lives. Somehow I should support someone who chases a musical hobby as a primary goal in life but works fast food in a mall for a career in his 30s. I'm sorry, I just don't have sympathy.

And I love the assertion that I have overextended myself in my $300,000 house. Sorry, I'm much smarter than that. I live well within my means. I'm sorry you are so bitter.

[Mike from back east]

Guys, I hear ya, but what I hear is disappointing. We've had public transit in this country and in most of the world for over a hundred years. It's a given, a standard role of every decent sized city I know of in this country. But when asked to pay a tad more to keep service running suddenly it's "every man for himself" and if you don't have it as good as I do, tough noogies pal. Wow, how sorry an attitude is that ... the old "I got mine, skru you game.

When people can no longer get a bus to their job do you think it's better if they go on unemployment and welfare and really start sucking all sorts of money OUT of the government? Brilliant.

Whining about "I shouldn't have to pay your costs" is about as pointless and selfish an argument as I've ever heard. We all pay plenty in taxes to cover the cost of medicare, medicaid, schools, and many other things that are PART of an overall civilized society; one worth being a part of. But hey, I have no kids, why should I have to pay the costs to educate YOUR kids? Anyone can play the "I shouldn't have to pay YOUR costs" game. Good grief. Can we get past being petty over $12-25 a month.

[Postal]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

Guys, I hear ya, but what I hear is disappointing. We've had public transit in this country and in most of the world for over a hundred years. It's a given, a standard role of every decent sized city I know of in this country. But when asked to pay a tad more to keep service running suddenly it's "every man for himself" and if you don't have it as good as I do, tough noogies pal. Wow, how sorry an attitude is that ... the old "I got mine, skru you game.

When people can no longer get a bus to their job do you think it's better if they go on unemployment and welfare and really start sucking all sorts of money OUT of the government? Brilliant.

Whining about "I shouldn't have to pay your costs" is about as pointless and selfish an argument as I've ever heard. We all pay plenty in taxes to cover the cost of medicare, medicaid, schools, and many other things that are PART of an overall civilized society; one worth being a part of. But hey, I have no kids, why should I have to pay the costs to educate YOUR kids? Anyone can play the "I shouldn't have to pay YOUR costs" game. Good grief. Can we get past being petty over $12-25 a month.

If I thought the government was a good steward of my money, I would be more inclined to give more when it asks. Unfortunately, I know that the government is a horrible steward of my money.