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Old 02-03-2008, 02:51 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,193,673 times
Reputation: 9067

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittnurse70 View Post
Drat, I can't give you rep for the above, Mike. I have to spread the love around a little more first. Love the part about the Taliban Training Camp!

I would like to say this about agriculture: Colorado has an arid climate. There is not much that can be grown w/o irrigation. We also have a short growing season (in the mtns almost non-eixistent). So maybe this isn't the 'prime agricultural land' that some think it is. After all, Colorado and the West is also running out of water, no?
It might be instructive to look in some USDA yearbooks from decades back and see how many categories of crops there were where Colorado was in the top 10 producers in the US. I don't have those books anymore (wish I did), but there were quite a few categories where Colorado ag was a big producer. Cattle, sheep, wheat, sugar beets, potatoes, hay--Colorado historically produced a lot of 'em; not to mention producing some of the highest quality apples, cherries, peaches, watermelons, and cantaloupes in the world. Colorado also was a leading state in the processing of ag products. Monfort, Holly Sugar, Great Western Sugar, Mapelli Bros., Sigman Meats, Kuner-Empson, Skyland Foods--they were all major processors of their respective ag products--and most were Colorado-based, and had a large proportion of their processing operations in Colorado. (Today, most of those are either completely gone, or their Colorado presence--if any--is but a shadow of its former self.) It is very sad that very few Coloradans living in the state today were here or are old enough to remember when Colorado was a leading ag state. It was really something to see then. Suburban crackerboxes and dried up formerly irrigated lands will never compare.

 
Old 02-03-2008, 02:55 PM
 
20,383 posts, read 37,955,333 times
Reputation: 18196
Quote:
Originally Posted by delta07 View Post
I can see why long time posters and members might be sick of a thread that keeps repeating itself. However, for those of us new to the boards, it would be a shame. Chances are the topic will come up again and someone will post. I know this was mentioned in another thread, but why close it if it is still active and creates interesting debate?
There is an index where newcomers can find the old debates, and I'll be sure this one is indexed.

Question is, how many times must we repeat this same entire logic circle only to arrive back at the same point each time.

At some point "interesting debate" turns into exhaustion at the repetitiveness of rehashing the same pointlessness.

This topic is as pointless as college football rivalries where each state makes fun of everyone else's team & cheerleaders.
 
Old 02-03-2008, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,125 posts, read 99,277,101 times
Reputation: 31590
I really like the indexing. I wish the mods on some of the other forums would do it as well. Thanks, Mike.
 
Old 02-03-2008, 03:01 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,193,673 times
Reputation: 9067
Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Of course you have to sleep. My point was that you've tried to close the debate with a pithy statement, which places the blame right back on the California (Arizona, etc.) transplants, rather than address other possible factors.



Here, you've made an interesting point. I find the latter part of your statement compelling; however, I'm not convinced that your initial assertion is true. Where are you getting your information?



You're working from a measurement of past performance. While that statistic is certainly of concern (and probably ought to inspire change), nothing is linear in this world. Development ebbs & flows; it's not constant. Many factors will affect whether or not this trend holds. Furthermore, I think it's arguable that current conditions in the housing market may have already dampened development.

Why would the moderator close the thread? I've seen no personal attacks, merely a rousing debate. Am I to understand that we can only have a conversation if we all agree? What a pity!
Instead of an analogy, let me speak quite clearly:

I have little use for many of the slimy developers who are selling Colorado's priceless natural and historical heritage down the river to build everything from tacky developments to trophy houses in the most damaging and shortsighted manner possible. It speaks of nothing more than greed and making a fast buck--and jamming the future costs and consequences of their shabbiness down the throats of people who never asked for that kind of development, or, worse yet, down the throats of people who haven't even been born yet.

That said, the developers wouldn't be able to do this if they didn't have thousands of schleps standing in line to buy their wares. So whose fault is it? The people selling the product or the people buying it? I'll leave the question unanswered.
 
Old 02-03-2008, 03:17 PM
 
20,383 posts, read 37,955,333 times
Reputation: 18196
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
....I have little use for many of the slimy developers who are selling Colorado's priceless natural and historical heritage down the river to build everything from tacky developments to trophy houses in the most damaging and shortsighted manner possible. It speaks of nothing more than greed and making a fast buck--and jamming the future costs and consequences of their shabbiness down the throats of people who never asked for that kind of development, or, worse yet, down the throats of people who haven't even been born yet.

That said, the developers wouldn't be able to do this if they didn't have thousands of schleps standing in line to buy their wares. So whose fault is it? The people selling the product or the people buying it? I'll leave the question unanswered.
I know no one who'll argue FOR slimy developers & fast-buck types, we can all agree on that. Fault for excesses or bad decisions rests in state/local political and zoning processes, something totally outside the power of anyone in other states. When we peel back all the layers to our dissatisfaction, our problem is with our repsective state and local government processes and officials, but not the people who want to live here there or elsewhere. This thread is odious to me as it singles out those who are totally innocent while deflecting scrutiny from the true culprit - developer/banker/politician coziness, not to mention the almost impenetrable wall of jargon and obtuse language buried in zoning regulations. It's a lot easier to scapegoat others than to dig into that stuff and mount a citizens revolt against sprawl. As usual, the dirty rats in public office are laughing at us as we beat up on each other - while they and their pals waltz to the bank.

Last edited by Mike from back east; 02-03-2008 at 03:29 PM..
 
Old 02-03-2008, 03:36 PM
 
166 posts, read 381,808 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
I'm sick of it, as I am of threads that want to "explore" the "perception" that all of Colorado is one big wacko wingnut fundie tent revival, gun show and American Taliban training camp.
you forgot about the alien (EBE's) landing sites in the san louie valley! i also get tired of the "blame," "sprawl," and "peak oil is here so we're all going die soon" tangents and hidden agendas found on a lot of threads that don't even deal with this stuff. too bad this forum doesn't have an "ignore" feature like some other forums. one can't get angry about the nonsense that one doesn't read! but then again, a lot of folks like to argue their pet peeves and soapboxes, myself included...
 
Old 02-03-2008, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,125 posts, read 99,277,101 times
Reputation: 31590
What do you propose, jazz? Somrthing like this?

(Just in case you didn't read this when I posted the link.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittnurse70 View Post
With apologies to Jonathan Swift; if you don't know who he is, check it out before reading this.

With the growth issue rearing its ugly head on this forum, I am submitting my own "modest proposal".

As of a predetermined date, all non-native Coloradans must leave the state. There will be no exceptions! If you give a non-native an inch, he/she will take a mile.

All non-native parents of minor children must leave. Orphanages will be established to care for the native children who are left behind. Parents will have the option of taking their children along, if the receiving state will accept them. This should not be a problem in some cities where population is declining and with it, school population. Pittsburgh comes to mind as one example.

Non-native married couples may go to either partner's native state, if it will accept both of them. Otherwise, they must separate and go to their individual states. A sort of "leper colony" will be established in Dinosaur, CO to house those who cannot find a state that will accept them. No marriage or procreation will be allowed at the penal colony!

All non-native educators must leave, as must all out of state students at all the colleges and universities. Never mind that out of state students at state colleges pay more than the cost of their education to subsidize the in-state students. Any increase in tuition will be more than welcome by the natives.

All non-native members of the Avalanche, Broncos, Nuggets, Rockies, Rapids, Mammoth, and Crush teams must leave, as must any non-native coaches.
No native may bring an elderly non-native parent here to care for him/her in the final years, period! Health care providers will not be allowed an exception. Get out!


Come on, natives! We are all non-natives deep down. If it was OK for a young couple to come here in 1945 to start and raise a family, why wasn't it OK for my DH and I to do so in 1980, at the height of "native" hysteria? Why isn't it OK today? We have come, sometimes for a lifetime, sometimes for a short while. While here, we have paid taxes, volunteered in the schools, and dare I say it: helped make Colorado a better place!
 
Old 02-03-2008, 03:39 PM
 
20,383 posts, read 37,955,333 times
Reputation: 18196
Quote:
Originally Posted by multitrak View Post
you forgot about the alien (EBE's) landing sites in the san louie valley! i also get tired of the "blame," "sprawl," and "peak oil is here so we're all going die soon" tangents and hidden agendas found on a lot of threads that don't even deal with this stuff. too bad this forum doesn't have an "ignore" feature like some other forums. one can't get angry about the nonsense that one doesn't read! but then again, a lot of folks like to argue their pet peeves and soapboxes, myself included...
Aliens!

Let's not steal threads from NM forums - profe$$ional courte$y dictates we respect their whole "Ro$well" tourist gig.

Last edited by Mike from back east; 02-04-2008 at 10:18 AM..
 
Old 02-03-2008, 03:52 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,193,673 times
Reputation: 9067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
I know no one who'll argue FOR slimy developers & fast-buck types, we can all agree on that. Fault for excesses or bad decisions rests in state/local political and zoning processes, something totally outside the power of anyone in other states. When we peel back all the layers to our dissatisfaction, our problem is with our repsective state and local government processes and officials, but not the people who want to live here there or elsewhere. This thread is odious to me as it singles out those who are totally innocent while deflecting scrutiny from the true culprit - developer/banker/politician coziness, not to mention the almost impenetrable wall of jargon and obtuse language buried in zoning regulations. It's a lot easier to scapegoat others than to dig into that stuff and mount a citizens revolt against sprawl. As usual, the dirty rats in public office are laughing at us as we beat up on each other - while they and their pals waltz to the bank.
All quite true, too, Mike. Take that comment from one who has pounded his head against that wall of politics way more than I have liked. If there is some universal blame, it is that seemingly no one, from individuals to national government, seems capable of thinking any farther into the future than next week. We just have to HAVE EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW. Sprawl is just one example of that kind of shortsightedness. That mindset will eventually do us great harm, if it does not just kill us off outright.
 
Old 02-03-2008, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Bend, OR
3,296 posts, read 8,229,558 times
Reputation: 3316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
I know no one who'll argue FOR slimy developers & fast-buck types, we can all agree on that. Fault for excesses or bad decisions rests in state/local political and zoning processes, something totally outside the power of anyone in other states. When we peel back all the layers to our dissatisfaction, our problem is with our repsective state and local government processes and officials, but not the people who want to live here there or elsewhere. This thread is odious to me as it singles out those who are totally innocent while deflecting scrutiny from the true culprit - developer/banker/politician coziness, not to mention the almost impenetrable wall of jargon and obtuse language buried in zoning regulations. It's a lot easier to scapegoat others than to dig into that stuff and mount a citizens revolt against sprawl. As usual, the dirty rats in public office are laughing at us as we beat up on each other - while they and their pals waltz to the bank.

Mike, you made a very valid point here. I often feel as though the politicians attempt to keep Americans so busy with work, that we are too tired to actually revolt.
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