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Old 10-29-2012, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,075 posts, read 8,978,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
"Nooooooobody knows the trouble I've seen...la la laaaaaa la la"

You are conflating man-made pollution to man-made changes in climate. Two different discussions.

There still is no conclusive evidence that man has indeed made global warming "worse" any more than, say, the methane from trillions of dinosaur farts during the Mesozoic era. And there are lots of bad things associated with global cooling when it happens, too. And when the time comes for that, it will happen, regardless of what puny impact we may or may not make. It's truly the most pompous among us that can look up at the vastness of the universe and then look back down and conclude that we control our environs on a planetary scale.
No, I didn't relate it all to climate change. Try actually reading before commenting. I talked about how man has affected his natural environment.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,660,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
No, I didn't relate it all to climate change. Try actually reading before commenting. I talked about how man has affected his natural environment.
So this was not about climate change??

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
Yes, there have been variations in the earth's climate over the centuries, sometimes causing glaciation, other times causing vastly melting glaciers...but that doesn't mean we have to make it worse.
I actually read it...and you actually wrote it.
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,075 posts, read 8,978,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
So this was not about climate change??



I actually read it...and you actually wrote it.
No Bob, I related different examples of ways in which "man has polluted this planet". Then in a separate paragraph I responded to the issue of climate change, mentioning that there have been many periods of climate change that have, for example, caused glaciers to advance to recede, and said that there was no need to man to add to it.
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:17 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
20,924 posts, read 37,655,758 times
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You can get a pretty good glimpse of "State of RMNP" for last 50 yrs driving west from Ft Morgan in the late afternoon. The 'brown Cloud' USED to center in Denver, then by 1980's it had reached Ft Collins. By then I was spending most my recreation time in WY. Shortly thereafter having to leave my CO ranch (Near RMNP) due to California induced property tax increases. (From 'RE equity Fleeing CA", that in the olden days needed to be 're-invested'). Too Bad CA didn't keep the RE equity resident to CA... We would ALL be a lot richer for that (especially the state of CA.)

AND RNMP would be much healthier. Tho it will certainly outlive me.
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Old 02-16-2013, 05:11 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 5,857,024 times
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Wink RMNP: not with a chainsaw

"Mountain residents only need to look as far as the Fern Lake Fire to see the benefits of Rocky Mountain National Park's fuel mitigation program. While park fire managers can't prove it conclusively, but they feel prior fuel mitigation efforts in the Fern Lake Fire area were instrumental in preventing the fire from growing even larger and threatening more homes than it did when 75mph winds pushed the fire eastward toward Estes Park last Dec. 1." [1]


That is their rationale for the desecration of your national park.

Officials in Rocky Mountain National Park feel winter conditions are suitable to begin burning the 1,500 slash piles they've got scattered around the park from the butchering of these trees. Anyone having recently driven into RMNP from the Grand Lake entrance, or on the east side up to Bear Lake, or down to the Endo Valley, will have noticed all this destruction.

While surely true that RMNP would pose less of a fire risk to itself or adjacent Estes Park if pruned to within an inch of its life as a safe suburban park, somehow it has escaped the notice of Superintendent Vaughn Baker and his boys that their mandate is the protection, not wholesale logging, of a national park. One that happens to be officially 95% wilderness, and a designation which by law is to remain "untrammeled" by mankind. That means, theoretically and by law, hands off, whether they like it or not, and content to confine their depredations on nature to within their own personal garden.

It might be noted that their rationale for all this tree cutting (when they should go to great lengths to not even touch one) is wildfire mitigation. Yes, a desert denuded to bare ground is unlikely to burn much, but notable that the park service itself estimates that the region of the Fern Lake Fire has not burned in the last 800 to 1,000 years. Consider that. Many centuries and all that accumulated forest debris and no major fires? It brings into question their theories and rationales towards wildfire mitigation. Something else is at play. Moreover in consideration of the area dealt with, which as wilderness should remain natural and untouched, and which by nature any forest will naturally supply its own mulch in accumulated debris. It is a vital part of that cycle.

Meanwhile, the Fern Lake Fire continues to burn, as it has ongoing since inception on October 9, 2012. It is presently smoldering in a number of places in that rugged canyon landscape. With every good expectation it will flare up again come spring, possibly to very nasty effect.

Perhaps they should nuke RMNP to effectively extinguish all, just to make sure? Or instead of the band-aid of all these specious "thinning" operations, even within the (supposed) sanctuary of national parks, admit that nothing can withstand the forces of a rapidly changing environment. With these major fires the direct result of much drier and warmer conditions the forest cannot well tolerate, nor naturally accustomed. And for that we have largely to thank mankind for having thrown this global climate so out of whack.

If they want to prune anything it might be their vast ranks of bureaucrats thinking a chainsaw will solve anything. Thin that out to at last a ray of light, and at last honest reflection that one cannot cut their way out of this but must begin with the basis of what we have collectively done—and must correct in the fundamental core of our unhealthy way of life.

1) 'A Rocky Mountain reduction plan,' Estes Park Trail Gazette
A Rocky Mountain reduction plan - Estes Park Trail-Gazette
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:13 PM
 
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While I understand your sentiment, they're cutting out the dead, brown, tinder box trees from the pine beetle outbreak... not live trees.
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:51 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 5,857,024 times
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Wink Unfortunately, no

Au contraire, aside from those trees dead from often the mountain pine beetle, a large number of perfectly healthy, entirely green trees have been logged in the last several years in Rocky Mountain National Park.

At this point it might be somewhat hard to discern, as many of these slash piles of all cut have weathered, in some cases for well over a year. When assembled they were often a mixture of that dead and much verdantly green and alive until cut. Row after long row of them. This not only for the bad excuse of a new road segment of the Bear Lake Road, but many other places in the park where no good reason whatsoever to do so. For instance, and likely still there, in from the Grand Lake side one would drive past mile after mile of this.

One excuse the "stewards" of RMNP will give for this is, oh, since some trees had died we had to cut them all down, as the others thus weakened towards wind and so forth. Just south of Estes Park on CO 7 it is instructive to see how this plays out. At Lily Lake this road passes through a portion of RMNP, beginning southbound at the Lily Lake Trailhead. The park then extends in a thin strip up past Twin Sisters Peaks, and thus on either side of CO 7, but that road soon leaves the boundaries of the park not far south of Lily Lake, with its borders pulling well back on either side. South of Lily Lake, and when still within the park, one can witness RMNP's new enthusiasm for tree cutting in the absence of trees near the road and the many stumps. When the many trees pull back near the road where they have ever grown, one has left the border of the park. It is counterintuitive, but that thus far protected is outside the park.

Nor am I speaking of the weak and sick, if still alive cut, but that otherwise healthy. Not just some small thing here or there, but many many trees of decades growth of one, two foot diameter or more. Or just in cases many limbs sliced off some poor tree for no purpose at all. But that is their mindset.

It is nothing less than desecration in one area that should be MOST protected from such depredations. It has come to this, even there. Make no mistake who they are, what you are dealing with, or what not they might do.

This is our park, not theirs for whim or fancy. Yet the public allows this.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,075 posts, read 8,978,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idunn View Post
Au contraire, aside from those trees dead from often the mountain pine beetle, a large number of perfectly healthy, entirely green trees have been logged in the last several years in Rocky Mountain National Park.

At this point it might be somewhat hard to discern, as many of these slash piles of all cut have weathered, in some cases for well over a year. When assembled they were often a mixture of that dead and much verdantly green and alive until cut. Row after long row of them. This not only for the bad excuse of a new road segment of the Bear Lake Road, but many other places in the park where no good reason whatsoever to do so. For instance, and likely still there, in from the Grand Lake side one would drive past mile after mile of this.

One excuse the "stewards" of RMNP will give for this is, oh, since some trees had died we had to cut them all down, as the others thus weakened towards wind and so forth. Just south of Estes Park on CO 7 it is instructive to see how this plays out. At Lily Lake this road passes through a portion of RMNP, beginning southbound at the Lily Lake Trailhead. The park then extends in a thin strip up past Twin Sisters Peaks, and thus on either side of CO 7, but that road soon leaves the boundaries of the park not far south of Lily Lake, with its borders pulling well back on either side. South of Lily Lake, and when still within the park, one can witness RMNP's new enthusiasm for tree cutting in the absence of trees near the road and the many stumps. When the many trees pull back near the road where they have ever grown, one has left the border of the park. It is counterintuitive, but that thus far protected is outside the park.

Nor am I speaking of the weak and sick, if still alive cut, but that otherwise healthy. Not just some small thing here or there, but many many trees of decades growth of one, two foot diameter or more. Or just in cases many limbs sliced off some poor tree for no purpose at all. But that is their mindset.

It is nothing less than desecration in one area that should be MOST protected from such depredations. It has come to this, even there. Make no mistake who they are, what you are dealing with, or what not they might do.

This is our park, not theirs for whim or fancy. Yet the public allows this.
Honestly, I don't know if you're right or wrong.

But I would like to know if you have some qualifications to make all these pronouncements. And I think that's a fair question. If you don't, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:38 AM
 
2,253 posts, read 5,857,024 times
Reputation: 2615
Wink Like this

It is simple enough to verify this, simply visit Rocky Mountain National Park.

Perhaps begin with the Beaver Meadows park headquarters. Ask why they are cutting down all these trees, alive as well as dead, and likely receive much the same answer. That is what I did. Expect to receive a number of different explanations, blank stares, obfuscation and so forth, depending on whom talking with. But in time one will ferret out the truth of it.

Although, in consideration, the better course could be to first tour RMNP on one's own. This will allow a first hand view of what is going on, so as to lend a bit more credence to the questions to come: so as not easily deterred as knowing something is up—as you've personally seen it.

Not sure about their present progress in burning these slash piles, although unlikely they've got to very many yet, so lots to see. As said, it may at times be difficult to determine what was alive or dead, but look for the fuller branches and a good chance many bear more than a passing resemblance to that green and fairly recently alive. Trees dead from the mountain pine beetle first experience all their needles turning to a rust colored brown, then later more a deep near blackish brown before at last all falling off while the tree is still standing. Dead trees exhibit no green. Those affected and dying will exhibit a spreading needle mortality, so needles both green and those turning rust brown. Many live trees cut exhibited no overt signs of distress, appearing perfectly healthy.

As mentioned, aside from other locations, these slash piles could easily be found on the west side of the park from near the Grand Lake entrance station to about where the switchbacks begin upwards at the Colorado River trailhead.

This stretch of road still has areas where the forest closely borders the road; previously the forest bordered much of it. Now in many places it has been cut well back, with oft but a few trees remaining in the space once forest. Not all those trees were dead, not even close. And if doubting that then study the surrounding forest closely; in areas the tree mortality from the mountain pine beetle is unfortunately near or above 90%, yet evident in many places that a fair number of live trees exist among the dead even yet.

Among areas on the east side of the park would be the lower reaches of Bear Lake Road beyond Moraine Park, also on US 34 from Deer Ridge Junction dropping down to the flat of the Endo Valley. There should be no question, the slash piles are most often like large tepees composed of logs, branches and brush, over ten feet tall and perhaps fifteen in diameter, roughly. They were spaced at regular intervals next these roads, about forty feet or so to the side. Quite visible. Where some have already been burned in the Kawuneeche Valley, on the west side next the Colorado River, there were left large black circles of cinders. Left as such, with the Park Service not bothering to remediate that done any further. These areas remain as scars.

Aside from the slash piles, that which will remain much longer are the many tree stumps left. That alone can serve as a guide to the extent of this. RMNP usually cuts them fairly low to the ground, but still there in many instances. The dense stand of trees once at Timber Creek campground has almost all been removed; some of their stumps possibly as well. Not sure on the stumps there. Since surely using heavy equipment, they've probably removed many of the stumps from the many trees removed for their Bear Lake Road "improvement" project. Again, not sure on how many stumps may remain there, but clearly the forest alongside that road in places had been clearcut well back.

If with some experience in this, in no more than taking the time, one can gain a fair idea of the tree's state when cut, whether long dead or recently alive. Trees affected by the mountain pine beetle will leave stumps with a circular blue tinge along the outer edge, reaching back towards the center some distance along the age rings.

I've asked, been there in person on the ground in many places. Qualification exists in what I've witnessed and determined to learn the nature of. Anyone else might do as much.

Last edited by Idunn; 02-19-2013 at 03:37 AM..
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,075 posts, read 8,978,667 times
Reputation: 18475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idunn View Post
It is simple enough to verify this, simply visit Rocky Mountain National Park.

Perhaps begin with the Beaver Meadows park headquarters. Ask why they are cutting down all these trees, alive as well as dead, and likely receive much the same answer. That is what I did. Expect to receive a number of different explanations, blank stares, obfuscation and so forth, depending on whom talking with. But in time one will ferret out the truth of it.

Although, in consideration, the better course could be to first tour RMNP on one's own. This will allow a first hand view of what is going on, so as to lend a bit more credence to the questions to come: so as not easily deterred as knowing something is up—as you've personally seen it.

Not sure about their present progress in burning these slash piles, although unlikely they've got to very many yet, so lots to see. As said, it may at times be difficult to determine what was alive or dead, but look for the fuller branches and a good chance many bear more than a passing resemblance to that green and fairly recently alive. Trees dead from the mountain pine beetle first experience all their needles turning to a rust colored brown, then later more a deep near blackish brown before at last all falling off while the tree is still standing. Dead trees exhibit no green. Those affected and dying will exhibit a spreading needle mortality, so needles both green and those turning rust brown. Many live trees cut exhibited no overt signs of distress, appearing perfectly healthy.

As mentioned, aside from other locations, these slash piles could easily be found on the west side of the park from near the Grand Lake entrance station to about where the switchbacks begin upwards at the Colorado River trailhead.

This stretch of road still has areas where the forest closely borders the road; previously the forest bordered much of it. Now in many places it has been cut well back, with oft but a few trees remaining in the space once forest. Not all those trees were dead, not even close. And if doubting that then study the surrounding forest closely; in areas the tree mortality from the mountain pine beetle is unfortunately near or above 90%, yet evident in many places that a fair number of live trees exist among the dead even yet.

Among areas on the east side of the park would be the lower reaches of Bear Lake Road beyond Moraine Park, also on US 34 from Deer Ridge Junction dropping down to the flat of the Endo Valley. There should be no question, the slash piles are most often like large tepees composed of logs, branches and brush, over ten feet tall and perhaps fifteen in diameter, roughly. They were spaced at regular intervals next these roads, about forty feet or so to the side. Quite visible. Where some have already been burned in the Kawuneeche Valley, on the west side next the Colorado River, there were left large black circles of cinders. Left as such, with the Park Service not bothering to remediate that done any further. These areas remain as scars.

Aside from the slash piles, that which will remain much longer are the many tree stumps left. That alone can serve as a guide to the extent of this. RMNP usually cuts them fairly low to the ground, but still there in many instances. The dense stand of trees once at Timber Creek campground has almost all been removed; some of their stumps possibly as well. Not sure on the stumps there. Since surely using heavy equipment, they've probably removed many of the stumps from the many trees removed for their Bear Lake Road "improvement" project. Again, not sure on how many stumps may remain there, but clearly the forest alongside that road in places had been clearcut well back.

If with some experience in this, in no more than taking the time, one can gain a fair idea of the tree's state when cut, whether long dead or recently alive. Trees affected by the mountain pine beetle will leave stumps with a circular blue tinge along the outer edge, reaching back towards the center some distance along the age rings.

I've asked, been there in person on the ground in many places. Qualification exists in what I've witnessed and determined to learn the nature of. Anyone else might do as much.
As I said, the fact that you have no real qualifications to judge all this doesn't lessen the value of your opinion. Although it sure took you a long time to answer my question.
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