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View Poll Results: How will you vote on COLO Proposition 103?
Yes, raise the taxes for 5 years. 25 44.64%
No, do not raise the taxes. 30 53.57%
No opinion / don't care. 1 1.79%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Old 11-02-2011, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Western, Colorado
1,599 posts, read 2,682,264 times
Reputation: 937

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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain_hug99 View Post
Of course I'm disappointed. But I do believe that the bill writers shot themselves in the foot when they weren't specific on how this money would directly help schools.

What I find frustrating is that there are communities that do value education and feel that spending money on it is reasonable (i.e. Cheyenne Mtn 12) and approved their ballot measures, while others won't help make up the difference from what the state continually takes away.
Well, why can't the residents in these communities that think it's reasonable, make donations to their schools to fund the things they want instead of levying it on all the tax payers - whether they utilize the school system or not?

 
Old 11-02-2011, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,654,186 times
Reputation: 1682
It's amusing to see so many people parrotting the mantra that Colorado higher-education funding is "dismal."

It's certainly less well-funded than in many other places...but let's keep in mind that we have jacked up the costs of higher education year after year at rates far in excess of inflation, enabled by a veritable sea of easily-obtained and painful-to-service debt that is dragging our younger generations under the waves and which may never be repaid.

We need to get back to basics and get costs under control. Funding levels are not likely to go up any time soon as this Prop 103 drill reinforces...the answer lies not in trying to prop up the Ponzi scheme, but in getting back to what worked before we became a nation teeming with student debt slaves--a nation brimming with that same indentured servitude they should have been studying in history class. It lies in recognizing that everybody isn't cut out to go to college...and that getting a degree in Phone Answering, Valet Car Parking, or Litter Box Cleaning from Everest College or Colorado Technical University isn't the same thing as going to college. Oh yes, it may be fun, but dealing with the $90,000 in debt they encouraged you to rack up in the process most certainly is not--at at the end of the game you most likely won't be able to find a job that you weren't already qualified for before you started.

Anyway, I would suggest that compared with long-term historical funding levels extrapolated along the long-term mean trend line our education system is not "dismally" funded at all. Nor does it compare badly to education spending in other nations that are kicking our a**es for reasons that have nothing to do with education spending.
 
Old 11-02-2011, 07:04 PM
 
625 posts, read 1,151,310 times
Reputation: 569
Quote:
Throwing money at problems don't make them go away. This is how we ultimately end up with states like California and Michigan.
California schools are abysmally funded. I mean, for a state with a very high cost of living, where jobs in my profession pay 50%-75% more than they do in Colorado (as an example), and where a half-million dollar house is considered middle class, California funds its schools at rates similar to Alabama. Californians have been cutting taxes for decades. The only thing they seemed to be funding was prisons. And guess what? They went from top 5 to bottom 5 in educational performance, by one measure, from 1960s to 1990s. And that is true even if you only measure U.S.-born students, so lets not talk about immigration (of which California has many high-acheiving immigrant and first generation students, btw).

I won't say funding makes a great school, but when you starve schools, increase class sizes, and fail to attract qualified teachers b/c the pay and/or working conditions are bad, the results are predictable. Fort Collins had great schools and I dare say they were willing to put some resources into them and attract good teachers.

Colorado isn't where CA is. But if we ignore the funding situation for too long, I fear we may go in that direction ...
 
Old 11-02-2011, 07:10 PM
 
20,318 posts, read 37,826,095 times
Reputation: 18108
Bob, I've watched for years as places like Everest, Regis, Phoenix, Strayer and others grow fat from the ease of getting federal student loans even though many people are poorly served by these firms.

It bugs me that we don't have good trade schools anymore, or so few that they are invisible, and we have to rely on illegal immigrants for roofing, painting, carpentry, electrical, plumbing, concrete and other trades.

To my knowledge there is no college in the USA that teaches "manufacturing" and we wonder why our manufacturing has left for Asia or other places, not to mention the greed of Wall Street to up profits by lowering labor costs to third world subsistence levels.
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,961 posts, read 8,900,001 times
Reputation: 18336
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoracer51 View Post
Well, why can't the residents in these communities that think it's reasonable, make donations to their schools to fund the things they want instead of levying it on all the tax payers - whether they utilize the school system or not?
Well, is the road outside your house paved? Why didn't you pay for that yourself? Why should I pay for your road?

I could go on with other examples.
 
Old 11-02-2011, 08:09 PM
 
1,568 posts, read 1,266,585 times
Reputation: 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Well, is the road outside your house paved? Why didn't you pay for that yourself? Why should I pay for your road.

I could go on with other examples.
Why should people in West Undershoe pay for the roads in East Overshoe?
 
Old 11-02-2011, 08:12 PM
 
1,568 posts, read 1,266,585 times
Reputation: 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Bob, I've watched for years as places like Everest, Regis, Phoenix, Strayer and others grow fat from the ease of getting federal student loans even though many people are poorly served by these firms.

It bugs me that we don't have good trade schools anymore, or so few that they are invisible, and we have to rely on illegal immigrants for roofing, painting, carpentry, electrical, plumbing, concrete and other trades.

To my knowledge there is no college in the USA that teaches "manufacturing" and we wonder why our manufacturing has left for Asia or other places, not to mention the greed of Wall Street to up profits by lowering labor costs to third world subsistence levels.
Manufacturing is unskilled.

Trades are a different story.
 
Old 11-02-2011, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,961 posts, read 8,900,001 times
Reputation: 18336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
It's amusing to see so many people parrotting the mantra that Colorado higher-education funding is "dismal."

It's certainly less well-funded than in many other places...but let's keep in mind that we have jacked up the costs of higher education year after year at rates far in excess of inflation, enabled by a veritable sea of easily-obtained and painful-to-service debt that is dragging our younger generations under the waves and which may never be repaid.

We need to get back to basics and get costs under control. Funding levels are not likely to go up any time soon as this Prop 103 drill reinforces...the answer lies not in trying to prop up the Ponzi scheme, but in getting back to what worked before we became a nation teeming with student debt slaves--a nation brimming with that same indentured servitude they should have been studying in history class. It lies in recognizing that everybody isn't cut out to go to college...and that getting a degree in Phone Answering, Valet Car Parking, or Litter Box Cleaning from Everest College or Colorado Technical University isn't the same thing as going to college. Oh yes, it may be fun, but dealing with the $90,000 in debt they encouraged you to rack up in the process most certainly is not--at at the end of the game you most likely won't be able to find a job that you weren't already qualified for before you started.

Anyway, I would suggest that compared with long-term historical funding levels extrapolated along the long-term mean trend line our education system is not "dismally" funded at all. Nor does it compare badly to education spending in other nations that are kicking our a**es for reasons that have nothing to do with education spending.
What's wrong with parroting? You do it with phrases such as "We need to get back to basics and get costs under control" and "the Ponzi scheme" routine that has recently become the mantra of Republicans...who apparently don't really know the definition of a Ponzi scheme. Catchy sound bites with no substance.

However, I have no problem with this proposition going down to defeat. The education system didn't make a clear and strong case for needing it.
 
Old 11-02-2011, 08:33 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,823 posts, read 30,083,197 times
Reputation: 17698
Quote:
Originally Posted by docwatson View Post
California schools are abysmally funded. I mean, for a state with a very high cost of living, where jobs in my profession pay 50%-75% more than they do in Colorado (as an example), and where a half-million dollar house is considered middle class, California funds its schools at rates similar to Alabama. Californians have been cutting taxes for decades. The only thing they seemed to be funding was prisons. And guess what? They went from top 5 to bottom 5 in educational performance, by one measure, from 1960s to 1990s. And that is true even if you only measure U.S.-born students, so lets not talk about immigration (of which California has many high-acheiving immigrant and first generation students, btw).

I won't say funding makes a great school, but when you starve schools, increase class sizes, and fail to attract qualified teachers b/c the pay and/or working conditions are bad, the results are predictable. Fort Collins had great schools and I dare say they were willing to put some resources into them and attract good teachers.

Colorado isn't where CA is. But if we ignore the funding situation for too long, I fear we may go in that direction ...
Do you realize how much of our general fund is actually spent on labor? That would be payroll and benefits.

Second, you have no idea how bad our "immigration" problem is as far as ESL students. It's a HUGE issue here. If anything don't follow our lead. I still own a ranch and farm in CO and I'm going to be returning eventually. I've about had it here. For the short term the outrageous busing program has been terminated so they are no longer busing the mostly ESL students into what used to be the better schools on the tax payer dime. The Teachers are doing back flips they are so happy. No more catering to 20% of the class to get the English going while the rest of the class are on their own.

If you are looking to retire soon:
Taxes by State

Last edited by 1AngryTaxPayer; 11-02-2011 at 08:42 PM.. Reason: sorry about the dupe, wireless connection failure
 
Old 11-02-2011, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Western, Colorado
1,599 posts, read 2,682,264 times
Reputation: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Well, is the road outside your house paved? Why didn't you pay for that yourself? Why should I pay for your road?

I could go on with other examples.
What do gas taxes, registrations and tolls pay for?
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