U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: How will you vote on COLO Proposition 103?
Yes, raise the taxes for 5 years. 25 44.64%
No, do not raise the taxes. 30 53.57%
No opinion / don't care. 1 1.79%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 10-03-2011, 03:08 PM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,589,900 times
Reputation: 9494

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by motoracer51 View Post
mostly retirement obligations for people working in the system.
And there you have it.

 
Old 10-03-2011, 03:52 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,183,346 times
Reputation: 9067
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoracer51 View Post
- mostly retirement obligations for people working in the system.
In Colorado, the story was a little different. For years, Colorado teacher pay scales were considerably lower than the national norm--often way lower--and way lower than pay in the private sector. That was compensated for by a) teachers only having to essentially work a 9 month work year and b) by offering a defined-benefit retirement plan that was pretty generous. Like many places, the unfunded liability of that defined-benefit plan was often understated, resulting in the fiscal problem now facing many school districts.

The other nightmare for school districts is the plethora of federal mandates with which they must comply--often unfunded mandates by the federal government. This has adversely impacted both operating and capital budgets.

A great example of that nonsense is the school in Silverton. It is a combined school with around 65 students in K-12. Silverton is geographically isolated, so busing students elsewhere is not practical, especially in winter. When the school's coal heating system finally succumbed to age, federal school remodeling requirements came into play. By the time all of the federal requirements had been met, the school remodel cost to Colorado taxpayers had ballooned to nearly $12 million. In other words, replacing a heating system "mission-crept" into an expenditure of $184,615 per student for the building remodel, thanks to federal regulations. Local school officials sure can't be blamed for that.
 
Old 10-03-2011, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
12,106 posts, read 20,417,798 times
Reputation: 4148
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
In Colorado, the story was a little different. For years, Colorado teacher pay scales were considerably lower than the national norm--often way lower--and way lower than pay in the private sector. That was compensated for by a) teachers only having to essentially work a 9 month work year and b) by offering a defined-benefit retirement plan that was pretty generous. Like many places, the unfunded liability of that defined-benefit plan was often understated, resulting in the fiscal problem now facing many school districts.

The other nightmare for school districts is the plethora of federal mandates with which they must comply--often unfunded mandates by the federal government. This has adversely impacted both operating and capital budgets.

A great example of that nonsense is the school in Silverton. It is a combined school with around 65 students in K-12. Silverton is geographically isolated, so busing students elsewhere is not practical, especially in winter. When the school's coal heating system finally succumbed to age, federal school remodeling requirements came into play. By the time all of the federal requirements had been met, the school remodel cost to Colorado taxpayers had ballooned to nearly $12 million. In other words, replacing a heating system "mission-crept" into an expenditure of $184,615 per student for the building remodel, thanks to federal regulations. Local school officials sure can't be blamed for that.
Just one thing to add. While expensive its not as bad as $184,615 per student. The reason is heating systems can last for decades so they have to spread out the cost of the system for that many years. Its a accounting thing but one that is done in both the public and private sector.
 
Old 10-03-2011, 04:39 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,183,346 times
Reputation: 9067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie View Post
Just one thing to add. While expensive its not as bad as $184,615 per student. The reason is heating systems can last for decades so they have to spread out the cost of the system for that many years. Its a accounting thing but one that is done in both the public and private sector.
The point is that, were it not for inflexible and unreasonable federal regulation, the cost (whether amortized or not) would have probably been less than a quarter of that.
 
Old 10-03-2011, 09:54 PM
 
68 posts, read 144,356 times
Reputation: 107
Default Bideshi needs to do homework

Bideshi: Please check into the studies that have been done on European and Asian nations in terms of the results in students. They often do not include their substandard students (special education, title I types, highly transient, etc) in their scores.

Also, look at the breakdown on the population in terms of how homogeneous it is and the values most of the families share when it come to performing in school. Look too at how they track the academically "un-inclined" down a vocational pathway which I totally agree with at age cut point, however those students are no longer part of the equation if you are comparing say high school students alone between countries.
 
Old 10-04-2011, 01:15 AM
 
16,438 posts, read 18,589,900 times
Reputation: 9494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcliffe View Post
Bideshi: Please check into the studies that have been done on European and Asian nations in terms of the results in students. They often do not include their substandard students (special education, title I types, highly transient, etc) in their scores.

Also, look at the breakdown on the population in terms of how homogeneous it is and the values most of the families share when it come to performing in school. Look too at how they track the academically "un-inclined" down a vocational pathway which I totally agree with at age cut point, however those students are no longer part of the equation if you are comparing say high school students alone between countries.
Why do I think you must be in the field of education?

"Judge me by my works" - Jesus Christ
 
Old 10-04-2011, 02:22 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
1,627 posts, read 3,631,109 times
Reputation: 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim9251 View Post
As a fairly new resident of Colorado, I had to vote no. Throwing more money into a problem isn't necessarily the answer. Burdening tax payers even more when people are struggling, certainly isn't the answer. A temporary tax can easily turn into a not so temporary tax. And here's a thought, PARENTS take some responsibility for your kids education. Get involved with their life. Anyway, if the suits in Denver ran this state like a business instead of throwing money into goofy pet projects, there would be money for education.
Respectfully, how would a state or city measure it's success if it were run like a business? I'm not suggesting we should be throwing money down a well, as I agree that would be simply wasteful.

But if we ran our government like a business then we would be beholden largely to those that had invested the most money, regardless of general welfare, we would have to be "selling" education for a profit which would defeat the purpose of public education funding, and we would then have to show some kind of definitive margin of return...now, the last part might be possible if we could keep those graduates here, benefiting Colorado (and maybe even by way of a Colorado-centric curriculum), but we still have to justify where those jobs come from that EMPLOY them.

I think there are things for which we contribute as a public benefit because in the grand scheme there is a higher chance that our entire economy and culture can benefit from them. Education is just such a thing.

That said, I don't think it would hurt to have some innovative thinking as to HOW we educate, especially with resources such as the internet available now and increased popularity in home and alternative schooling...but that, too, would take some social change (dare I say the word some dread..."engineering") to drive toward viable solutions that do not leave us sputtering out while while small nations with comparable populations to our state pass us by.

I approve of a tax increase, but I would agree that it's gonna take more than just "throwing money at the problem" to improve education. It's going to take concerted, and yes, malleable, solutions as to where and how to spend that money. Less politics! More (careful) experimentation and observation!
 
Old 10-04-2011, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,109 posts, read 9,007,292 times
Reputation: 18527
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post

A great example of that nonsense is the school in Silverton. It is a combined school with around 65 students in K-12. Silverton is geographically isolated, so busing students elsewhere is not practical, especially in winter. When the school's coal heating system finally succumbed to age, federal school remodeling requirements came into play.
And there's a reason for such requirements.

In the 1980s (!!!) in southwestern Virginia there was still a public school with dirt floors.

Last month I found out there was still a one-room school house here in Colorado in the mid-1960s.

Such conditions may be satisfactory to you life-long Coloradans, but the majority of Americans say that's not right.
 
Old 10-04-2011, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,109 posts, read 9,007,292 times
Reputation: 18527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcliffe View Post
Bideshi: Please check into the studies that have been done on European and Asian nations in terms of the results in students. They often do not include their substandard students (special education, title I types, highly transient, etc) in their scores.

Also, look at the breakdown on the population in terms of how homogeneous it is and the values most of the families share when it come to performing in school. Look too at how they track the academically "un-inclined" down a vocational pathway which I totally agree with at age cut point, however those students are no longer part of the equation if you are comparing say high school students alone between countries.
You are correct, to some extent, although in more recent years some of the inequities between standards of who is included in the testing data in each country has been somewhat equalized. A few years while I was a middle school principal back in Virginia, our school was randomly selected to participate in such tests...I specifically remember the math testing.

Other problems abound in foreign countries as well, which skews the data. For example, Thailand will tell you they have a compulsory education law. Yet, you can walk all over Bangkok and see children begging in the street during regular school hours. It may have changed recently, but through the 1980s and into the early 2000s, high school in Thailand was not compulsory. Only the richer and smarter students tended to go on to high school. So much of the population was not part of the international testing programs.
 
Old 10-04-2011, 01:13 PM
 
29 posts, read 42,484 times
Reputation: 22
Voting no myself for these reasons:
1. As a result of Referendum C and Ammendment 23 just a few years ago, Colorado already spends over 40% of it's total annual budget on education (I believe 43% was the last figure I heard).

2. Nothing in this bill specifies how the money will be spent, let alone how it will improve education or testing scores (literally a blank check with no ROI).

While I believe education is important and teachers are underpaid, nothing in this bill indicates teachers (or students) will benefit from the revenues generated by these tax increases. In my opinion, Prop 103 is nothing more than a blatant money grab intended to ensure continued votes from the teacher's union (primarily to fund administrators and PERA obligations).
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top