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View Poll Results: How will you vote on COLO Proposition 103?
Yes, raise the taxes for 5 years. 25 44.64%
No, do not raise the taxes. 30 53.57%
No opinion / don't care. 1 1.79%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-21-2011, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, WA
12,840 posts, read 23,205,680 times
Reputation: 12223

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At my kids' elementary school, kids are allowed to take up to three bathroom breaks per day during instruction, in addition to any they take at recess/lunch/before/after/etc.

Getting rid of that little unknown/un-broadcasted policy (at my kids' school at least) would cost nothing and might even raise test scores. There are kids who take advantage of said policy to go eff around in the halls . I'm sure other parents could provide similar examples of "duh" things that can be fixed in their local schools which might improve achievement.

What I've noticed with public schools these days, is that the teachers/admin behave in a manner that makes it look like their main focus is to not get sued. Perhaps if we reversed school culture back ~ 20 or more years, we'd see some improvement.
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,966 posts, read 98,814,535 times
Reputation: 31376
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXM1 View Post
@katiana

what does sports and music have to do with performing better on standardized tests and getting a better education? Music I could consider... but sports? If those are your suggestions I hope people of Colorado will be voting "No" to the tax hike. It will clearly go to waste.
Sports are extracurricular. Students do not get credit for them. Students pay extra for them. In addition they are a small part of the school budget.I understand you're not from the US, we do things differently than in Europe. There is a poster on the ed forum from Europe who also disparages art and music education. These things are part of the American educational system. Why does everything have to be tied to standardized test scores?
 
Old 10-21-2011, 06:34 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,099,702 times
Reputation: 9065
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Sports are extracurricular. Students do not get credit for them. Students pay extra for them. In addition they are a small part of the school budget.I understand you're not from the US, we do things differently than in Europe. There is a poster on the ed forum from Europe who also disparages art and music education. These things are part of the American educational system. Why does everything have to be tied to standardized test scores?
I agree with Kat on this one. Art and music are necessary and critical parts of the elementary and secondary educational process. They teach children a lot about culture and creativity. As those programs have waned in the school system, it shouldn't be surprising that we are graduating legions of kids from high school who think "music" is a bunch of talentlles idiots jumping around in a music video extolling mistreating their "shorties" and "b****es," "literature" is a text message more than two paragraphs long, and "art" is the s*** sprayed on the sides of railroad cars or buildings. Blunty, a society with no appreciation of music and art and one that does not instill that appreciation in its children ain't much of a society!
 
Old 10-27-2011, 09:32 AM
 
7 posts, read 8,443 times
Reputation: 23
@Sob

"Extensive hours of studying will do nothing for a student if they are being taught in way they do not understand the concept. You can spend your every waking hour jamming information into a child's head but if they can't apply those concepts when it doesn't fit one of the 1000 problems you've made them practice, how else do you expect to hold their hand?"

Wrong. That is the whole point of studying alone. A student eventually figures out how they best learn on their own. That is precisely my point and why your school system is failing. Your students get as you say "one fits all" education in school. They do not get individual education that is supposed to work for them uniquely because they do not study alone long enough to understand what works and what doesnt. You have to learn how to LEARN if that makes sense. You can have 1000 students and 1000 ways to learn. You will not be able to accomodate for all of these people in the school system. They are supposed to individually find out how to be successful students, and this takes long hours and years of work.

Regarding problem solving.... its not about individual problems and i never made that claim. The actual information that is being taught is completely irrelevant. The point is to expose a student to thousands of problems so they can start to see patterns on how those problems are solved and make connections. Under such a learning system, a student is capable of solving any complex issue they haven't encountered before. The current system DOES NOT provide enough exposure to these problems. Simply put not enough homework and work in general in the classrooms.

'As I've already said, most people learn the same way, but that's because it's already expected they learn the same way. Are you trying to say we shouldn't cater? The system is already perfect? Is that what you're trying to say? Hard work can pay off. Hard work does NOT always pay off. It can, but it doesn't always."

I never said the system is perfect. Did you miss all the posts I made advocating for harder exams and more hours of school work? That is my proposed solution, one that works in other countries. Show me in what country throwing money has helped this issue.


@Kat

Standardized tests are the most important because thats how your kid gets a job when they get into the real world. And that is the only tangible measure of success compared to other students. That is not to say that musicians, artists, and athletes cannot be successful. But it is much harder to make a good wage and have a stable living when you are in any of these professions compared to academic based careers.
 
Old 10-27-2011, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,889 posts, read 8,873,507 times
Reputation: 18296
Quote:
Originally Posted by DXM1 View Post
@Sob

...Your students get as you say "one fits all" education in school. They do not get individual education that is supposed to work for them uniquely because they do not study alone long enough to understand what works and what doesnt. You have to learn how to LEARN if that makes sense. You can have 1000 students and 1000 ways to learn. You will not be able to accomodate for all of these people in the school system. They are supposed to individually find out how to be successful students, and this takes long hours and years of work.

Regarding problem solving.... its not about individual problems and i never made that claim. The actual information that is being taught is completely irrelevant. The point is to expose a student to thousands of problems so they can start to see patterns on how those problems are solved and make connections. Under such a learning system, a student is capable of solving any complex issue they haven't encountered before. The current system DOES NOT provide enough exposure to these problems. Simply put not enough homework and work in general in the classrooms.

...I never said the system is perfect. Did you miss all the posts I made advocating for harder exams and more hours of school work? That is my proposed solution, one that works in other countries. Show me in what country throwing money has helped this issue.

...

Standardized tests are the most important because thats how your kid gets a job when they get into the real world. And that is the only tangible measure of success compared to other students. That is not to say that musicians, artists, and athletes cannot be successful. But it is much harder to make a good wage and have a stable living when you are in any of these professions compared to academic based careers.
Schools today are NOT "one size fits all". In the school where I was principal (and that entire system...the 11th largest in the nation) we had:
General education; full GT, GT-base (sort of a GT-lite where instead of taking all GT courses, students took 2 classes they were particularly strong in); English for second-language learners; and special education that was very specialized per student need.

For 1,000 students there are not 1,000 ways to learn. But no institution of any type, anywhere could accommodate learners who learned a thousand different ways. And in most foreign countries, there is far less teaching to various learning styles than there is here.

Yes, learning problem solving skills is one of the most important aspects of learning. But it is not the only important aspect of learning. Learning a cultural basis of where you live and the world is, more often than not, not about problem solving. You have to have a framework of knowledge before you can get to any real degree of problem solving.

In terms of reduced amounts of homework, two things. First, more homework is not necessarily better homework. If a child "gets" how to do long division, 100 problems per night is any more effective than 20 problems per night. And you forget where most of the impetus for reducing homework loads comes from -- PARENTS.
 
Old 10-27-2011, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Northglenn, CO
521 posts, read 691,837 times
Reputation: 1141
I was voting yes on this all the way until I read the last line of ". . . and allowing the additional tax revenues to be collected, kept, and spent notwithstanding any limitations provided by law?"

That says all you need to know about politics. Make 99% of the law sound amazing to the average voter then screw them in the last line of the bill.
 
Old 10-27-2011, 04:10 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,099,702 times
Reputation: 9065
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiScree View Post
I was voting yes on this all the way until I read the last line of ". . . and allowing the additional tax revenues to be collected, kept, and spent notwithstanding any limitations provided by law?"

That says all you need to know about politics. Make 99% of the law sound amazing to the average voter then screw them in the last line of the bill.
The last line of the initiative is necessary, thanks to the 1992 TABOR Amendment of the Colorado Constitution. Without it, the revenue increase would likely be found unconstitutional--even if it was the intent of the electorate to enact it. And the TABOR Amendment was not crafted by the politicians; it was crafted by a non-practicing ex-California attorney from Colorado Springs. It was so poorly and vaguely written that it has been litigated in the courts almost continually since its enactment. Buried in the lofty language of the TABOR Amendment was also a lot of stuff designed mainly to protect the drafter's personal pecuniary interests--so much for ideological purity.
 
Old 10-28-2011, 04:52 PM
 
704 posts, read 1,439,715 times
Reputation: 629
I voted no, and I'll be surprised if it gets 40% of the statewise vote.
 
Old 10-30-2011, 12:39 AM
 
625 posts, read 1,150,431 times
Reputation: 569
Quote:
Standardized tests are the most important because thats how your kid gets a job when they get into the real world.
This is a joke, right? People skills, time management, project management skills, technical skills, absolutely. Standardized tests? I have never in my life heard of an employer who relied on these for hiring decisions!
 
Old 10-30-2011, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,889 posts, read 8,873,507 times
Reputation: 18296
Quote:
Originally Posted by docwatson View Post
This is a joke, right? People skills, time management, project management skills, technical skills, absolutely. Standardized tests? I have never in my life heard of an employer who relied on these for hiring decisions!
I agree, Doc.

Standardized test results and high school grades might get one into college, but after that they become pretty much irrelevant. And, after one gets their first "real" job, even college transcripts become increasingly unimportant, as real-life work experiences take precedence.

The one place where I saw standardized test scores make a real difference is in how college admissions offices look at students from some school districts. But there I'm not talking about the individual's scores, I'm talking about how well the school district does overall.
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