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Old 10-03-2011, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
2,395 posts, read 4,166,468 times
Reputation: 7492

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Good luck getting in the mountains in winter with that thing.

And oh, we are coal here, so electric cars are actually worse for the environment

 
Old 10-03-2011, 10:05 AM
Status: "Not politically correct" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Western Colorado
10,562 posts, read 11,661,819 times
Reputation: 24261
When they come out with a car powered by Mr. Fusion and a Flux Capacitor I'll get one.
 
Old 10-03-2011, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Centennial State
399 posts, read 667,898 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snikt View Post
Good luck getting in the mountains in winter with that thing.

And oh, we are coal here, so electric cars are actually worse for the environment
The last time I checked the Nissan Leaf isn't intended for mountain trips so not sure what you're trying to say.

That's fine. The fact that carbon emissions still got worse by the years didn't stop people from buying gasoline cars. ;D It's a slow movement for a reason. Not every single duck has to be lined up for them to start marching. But perfectionists can argue otherwise and inhale the emissions meanwhile.
 
Old 10-03-2011, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
2,395 posts, read 4,166,468 times
Reputation: 7492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sobe Itsavized View Post
The last time I checked the Nissan Leaf isn't intended for mountain trips so not sure what you're trying to say.

That's fine. The fact that carbon emissions still got worse by the years didn't stop people from buying gasoline cars. ;D It's a slow movement for a reason. Not every single duck has to be lined up for them to start marching. But perfectionists can argue otherwise and inhale the emissions meanwhile.
Trying to say that this is Colorado, and would be pretty difficult to have a car that wasn't capable of that since mountain trips are kinda everywhere. Not just mountain trips, but winter driving in general is bad for hybrid/electric cars and that's also another big thing here.

As far as the emissions thing, people that support electric cars usually blindly assume they are better for the environment because this magical electric comes from the wall. Just want to show that this isn't always the case
 
Old 10-03-2011, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Centennial State
399 posts, read 667,898 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snikt View Post
Trying to say that this is Colorado, and would be pretty difficult to have a car that wasn't capable of that since mountain trips are kinda everywhere. Not just mountain trips, but winter driving in general is bad for hybrid/electric cars and that's also another big thing here.

As far as the emissions thing, people that support electric cars usually blindly assume they are better for the environment because this magical electric comes from the wall. Just want to show that this isn't always the case
Mountain trips exist for a few who actually go into the mountains in this economy but most people spend their time on the front range. I can say just the same. Obviously you don't take up a 73 mile (on average) range car up into the mountains. You take a Prius if you really want to or just a regular petrol. Like I already said, it's city car. The last time I checked there are cities in the mountains but city cars are limited to staying within range of cities like the Nissan Leaf for example. People who buy a Nissan Leaf are most likely going to realize they will need to have other options open if they need something with a longer range that requires a more common fuel source. Owning only a Nissan Leaf when obviously one's lifestyle includes monthly mountain trips was not smart thinking on that person's part. That is why most people who buy the Nissan Leaf already have a non-hybrid with a longer range.

Again, overcoming infrastructure issues is something that will have to happen gradually in order to accommodate the plug-in vehicles in the winter. Even if it is "in general bad for hybrid/electric cars" to be driving in the winter that never stopped people from buying Prii in Boulder or Denver. Or New York City for that matter.
 
Old 10-03-2011, 01:58 PM
 
9,817 posts, read 19,039,713 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sobe Itsavized View Post
Oh, thank you for doing so much of the hard work for wanner. That poster seems to like to make up a lot of things on the spot.

How many miles that takes off the already 70 average mile range depends on a lot of things and is not a set number. That should be obvious since every individual drives differently and at different times of the day.

And again, that is why I said the infrastructure has to allow charging here and there in order to curb the range anxiety everyone else already has.

;D Again, if it's not the Nissan Leaf 2012 then it is irrelevant. But now that you finally realize that there is a method to combat against the cold weather issues, you can finally start using more assumptions and generalizations to try and prove a point.

All you can say is "good luck"? Lol I'm certain you've said a lot more than that. Just scroll up.
So what is your experience with the 2012 Leaf other than posting marketing tripe off of blogs?

Please add all of your worldly experiences other than 3rd hand opinions from green blogs.

Also please post what you believe to be things "i have made up". I'd like to hear details. I add my expertise to various topics on city data to help inform others and present my point of view.

I'd also refrain from nonsense saying I am making things up considering I have contracted my services with Nissan for over 5 years, among other manufacturers. I've driven their whole fleet in a wide variety of scenarios, including hand built pre production vehicles and have been through many engineering and marketing presentations from their training division onsite their HQ in Tennessee.

I am quite familiar with the Leaf and the technology and I have actual driving experience with the technology in cold weather.

There is nothing other than a band aid to "combat" cold weather issues with this car. The cold weather package isn't really going to help all that much in winter and you are going to have to leave the car plugged in quite often. If it sits and the batteries freeze, you've got problems.

You also have the range issue in cold weather. Ever seen traffic backups on I-25 in snow storms?

I have found electric cars are a technological dead end. They always have been. Electric cars have been around for 110 years and they have never gone beyond that dead end. They don't generate heat efficiently, which is vital in winter and when the battery runs low that is it. It takes 12 hours or so to charge a Leaf from a regular outlet.

From a consumer point of view, they don't have the range, you have to constantly plug them in(who wants to worry about that all the time) and you can't refuel them in a jiffy.

I'll just say don't be surprised in cold weather if the car lasts less than 10 miles.

What I have found with cars like the Leaf is a lot of greenie people that buy these are like cults, they don't want to hear anything that challenges their opinion and they have swallowed all the marketing pap.

It's an interesting technology demonstrator, but my own personal opinion is that it is a dead end and not the answer.

The answer also doesn't lay in creating a taxpayer funded massive infrastructure to support a tiny number of vehicles. Also where is all this electricity going to come from? Thanks to the greenies, building a power plant in the USA is a tough ask and our electrical system is already maxxed out at times in some states.
 
Old 10-03-2011, 02:01 PM
 
9,817 posts, read 19,039,713 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim9251 View Post
When they come out with a car powered by Mr. Fusion and a Flux Capacitor I'll get one.
You got that right.

Top Gear did a wonderful piece earlier this year on the Leaf which I felt was very fair on the car and the limitations of the technology:

Top Gear Nissan Leaf on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/27535208 - broken link)
 
Old 10-03-2011, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
2,395 posts, read 4,166,468 times
Reputation: 7492
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
So what is your experience with the 2012 Leaf other than posting marketing tripe off of blogs?

Please add all of your worldly experiences other than 3rd hand opinions from green blogs.

Also please post what you believe to be things "i have made up". I'd like to hear details. I add my expertise to various topics on city data to help inform others and present my point of view.

I'd also refrain from nonsense saying I am making things up considering I have contracted my services with Nissan for over 5 years, among other manufacturers. I've driven their whole fleet in a wide variety of scenarios, including hand built pre production vehicles and have been through many engineering and marketing presentations from their training division onsite their HQ in Tennessee.

I am quite familiar with the Leaf and the technology and I have actual driving experience with the technology in cold weather.

There is nothing other than a band aid to "combat" cold weather issues with this car. The cold weather package isn't really going to help all that much in winter and you are going to have to leave the car plugged in quite often. If it sits and the batteries freeze, you've got problems.

You also have the range issue in cold weather. Ever seen traffic backups on I-25 in snow storms?

I have found electric cars are a technological dead end. They always have been. Electric cars have been around for 110 years and they have never gone beyond that dead end. They don't generate heat efficiently, which is vital in winter and when the battery runs low that is it. It takes 12 hours or so to charge a Leaf from a regular outlet.

From a consumer point of view, they don't have the range, you have to constantly plug them in(who wants to worry about that all the time) and you can't refuel them in a jiffy.

I'll just say don't be surprised in cold weather if the car lasts less than 10 miles.

What I have found with cars like the Leaf is a lot of greenie people that buy these are like cults, they don't want to hear anything that challenges their opinion and they have swallowed all the marketing pap.

It's an interesting technology demonstrator, but my own personal opinion is that it is a dead end and not the answer.

The answer also doesn't lay in creating a taxpayer funded massive infrastructure to support a tiny number of vehicles. Also where is all this electricity going to come from? Thanks to the greenies, building a power plant in the USA is a tough ask and our electrical system is already maxxed out at times in some states.
Well said, I've also wondered that you see these EV charging stations popping up. Who is paying for that electricity?

Also for the "quick charge" or w/e I'm sure it's cheap to have 480V circuit installed in your house, and probably impossible for anyone renting
 
Old 10-03-2011, 02:13 PM
 
9,817 posts, read 19,039,713 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sobe Itsavized View Post
The last time I checked the Nissan Leaf isn't intended for mountain trips so not sure what you're trying to say.

That's fine. The fact that carbon emissions still got worse by the years didn't stop people from buying gasoline cars. ;D It's a slow movement for a reason. Not every single duck has to be lined up for them to start marching. But perfectionists can argue otherwise and inhale the emissions meanwhile.
Then what is this near $40,000 car supposed to do? In a lot of these states, like Colorado, people might have to drive up a hill or mountain or 2.

Actually most passenger cars today have cleaner air out the tailpipe than what enters through the intake and some several times cleaner. Honda was the first almost 20 years ago to make some major strides and many others have followed and developed it further.

Also in a lot of these states to produce the electricity for these amazing electric cars where does the electricity come from? Well originally it comes from mining coal or uranium and then the subsequent production into a useable form and then transporting it to a power facility where it is turned into electricity. It doesn't come from a magic power socket.

One answer that has been used successfully in Australia and some other countries is compressed natural gas. Most major fuel stations in Australia have a CNG bowser to fill the tank on your vehicle. The United States has a huge supply of natural gas.
 
Old 10-03-2011, 02:24 PM
 
9,817 posts, read 19,039,713 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sobe Itsavized View Post
Mountain trips exist for a few who actually go into the mountains in this economy but most people spend their time on the front range. I can say just the same. Obviously you don't take up a 73 mile (on average) range car up into the mountains. You take a Prius if you really want to or just a regular petrol. Like I already said, it's city car. The last time I checked there are cities in the mountains but city cars are limited to staying within range of cities like the Nissan Leaf for example. People who buy a Nissan Leaf are most likely going to realize they will need to have other options open if they need something with a longer range that requires a more common fuel source. Owning only a Nissan Leaf when obviously one's lifestyle includes monthly mountain trips was not smart thinking on that person's part. That is why most people who buy the Nissan Leaf already have a non-hybrid with a longer range.

Again, overcoming infrastructure issues is something that will have to happen gradually in order to accommodate the plug-in vehicles in the winter. Even if it is "in general bad for hybrid/electric cars" to be driving in the winter that never stopped people from buying Prii in Boulder or Denver. Or New York City for that matter.
That's why these cars will end up in the driveway of pseudo intellectual liberals in Boulder next to their Porsche Cayenne or Range Rover Supercharged SUV. People will be able to point to them to say how green and forward thinking they are, but will get little real use. Most people out there every time they drive the thing are not going to want to deal with plugging it in. And most people don't have close to $40K before their taxpayer funded rebate kicks in, to toss around on a comfortable golf cart for trips to King Soopers.

In terms of this infrastructure you describe, who pays for that? And who pays for all the electricity?

The Prius by the way has a gasoline engine to fall back on. So no it doesn't stop people because they can pop into the nearest gas station and fill up.
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