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Old 02-02-2012, 06:58 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,314 posts, read 10,465,436 times
Reputation: 13262

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie View Post
All I am trying to do is point out no matter how unlikely it might seem today giving the financial situation of the federal government I would not put anything past them and I think Colorado Springs can and should do more to diversify their economy.
I think your ant-Colorado Springs bias has clouded your vision. Have you ever looked at the Colorado Springs economy? Is it as diverse as Denver's? Of course not. But it is no slouch for a metro of its size either. From military to IT (which DID decline in the city but is still a significant presence) to tourism to education (Colorado College, UCCS, USAFA) to periodic attractions (concerts, etc) to service sector employment to business. The city represents the United States in front of the world through the USOC and Training Center. With the city's revised government structure, the government has greater incentive to create a business friendly environment as the office of city manager (which was NOT accountable to the voters) has been dispatched. There is room for improvement here as there is with any city, but to say that this city's economy is not diverse is to ignore the facts and erodes credibility.

 
Old 02-02-2012, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Arlington, Va
236 posts, read 394,978 times
Reputation: 132
the phase that the Springs area is in or has stayed in even with a booming military presence over the years is exactly why I took a liking to the area as opposed to the Denver metro area.

I wouldn't change a thing, the American dream still lives there...
 
Old 02-02-2012, 08:18 PM
 
9,817 posts, read 19,033,460 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by PcolaFLGuy View Post
Well, as long as I can shoot back, we're all good!

LOL. I'm just saying. I deal with military flyovers daily and live right next to the regional airport. But 500 feet? Especially when the locals are wanting 5000K. I'm not sure what the norm here is, but that sounds like a wide gap between what the locals and military feel is acceptable. No?
500 feet has always been the standard AFAIK. It's not like that is the altitude they fly at all the time, just the minimum.
 
Old 02-02-2012, 08:25 PM
 
9,817 posts, read 19,033,460 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
The extreme southeast section of Colorado ain't in my backyard so it would be easy for me to agree to sacrifice that desolate seemingly barren and dry land to something constructive... or destructive but patriotic and exciting.

But what about those few folks out there? What about the voice of everyone in the Ark Valley and the areas including the following counties ... Pueblo Huerfano Las Animas Otero Crowley Bent Prowers and Baca just to name a few?

I know many of these folks from here that oppose Pinion Canyon expansion adamantly and I know they are nothing like you describe in the quote above.

To be blunt, I disagree with your spin on the topic entirely and agree with the assessment of the OP.
From what I was able to determine from what was on offer, many of those shouting about it don't sound like locals to me.

It seems this Pinon Canyon area has been around for sometime and now it's a big issue? I'm not buying it.
 
Old 02-02-2012, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,654,186 times
Reputation: 1682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie View Post
Obviously I don't have those but I do know that 75% of the federal deficit is entitlements and military spending. They will have to cut military spending there is no way around that. I admit I could be wrong and they will not close down any bases but with how much they will need to cut out of the military budget I just think that is something that should be considered in any long range planning.
No, 75% of the deficit is not entitlements and military--the deficit is the total spending above the tax revenues collected, and it is not (and can't be) partitioned off or accounted for in this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie View Post
Just look at the federal deficit. How can they not solve it without major cuts in military spending and how will that not affect the local economy of Colorado Springs where most of the local GDP is either directly or indirectly related to military spending.
There's a huge difference between big cuts in military spending which all of us can agree will happen, and your conclusion that one or two bases here must close. Sure, there will be effects to the local economy from a large budget cut, but as I and others have pointed out, it's not just going to be a spam-sliced chop across the board--acquisition programs are going to be hit hard (not a Colo Springs vulnerability), overseas basing is going to be hit hard as a result of pullouts from Iraq and Afghastlystan, and yes, some US bases are going to lose forces. Loss of a BCT from Carson is significant, but a whole lot different thing than closing down the entire division.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie View Post
I am not jealous of the Springs being a military city as I live in one as well. Pueblo is home to the USAF pilot school which technically is a small military base, the Pueblo Chemical Depot, and even Fort Carson as they want to open the southern gate and that would help Pueblo and is one of the reasons Pueblo Springs Ranch is being considered. I just know what its like to live in a city when a base is closed down and nothing was done prior to diversify the economy, I am referring to when the Pueblo Army Depot was closed. All I am trying to do is point out no matter how unlikely it might seem today giving the financial situation of the federal government I would not put anything past them and I think Colorado Springs can and should do more to diversify their economy. I mean the MSA is over 600,000 people. If they got some kind of tax credit going for primary jobs imagine the kind of incentives they could give out and what kind of large companies they could get to move there.
You paint a picture of a city government resting on its laurels, content with the federal government presence here and feeling no need to do anything else. Well, far from it. OTOH, giving bribes to companies to come here in the form of tax and regulatory giveaways is taking the low road. It isn't good business--it's corruption, plain and simple. Now if the city wants to streamline its tax structure for ALL participants, that's different. But nobody should get special status, leaving all the rest of us to pay the taxes to support the roads, power infrastructure, etc that they will need to operate. Having a robust government sector is a good thing in that we do not have to wh*re out our city to a bunch of corporate robber barons looking to get over on their new host by not paying taxes.
 
Old 02-02-2012, 08:52 PM
 
9,817 posts, read 19,033,460 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Artifact View Post
the phase that the Springs area is in or has stayed in even with a booming military presence over the years is exactly why I took a liking to the area as opposed to the Denver metro area.

I wouldn't change a thing, the American dream still lives there...
Yes. I grew up around Army bases and also got to experience Navy and AF bases. I never regretted living near a base, even when I lived less than a mile from the firing lines at the Home of Army Artillery. 24 hours a day of artillery going on and I was so close that at night flares from exercises lit up my bedroom. I lived at the Home of Army Aviation and under the flight pattern of the busiest heliport in the world. Helicopters used the edge of our neighborhood to line up to land and by then their altitude was less than 200ft off the deck. Sometimes I could see the pilots faces. It wasn't a big deal to me then and isn't now.

The fact a few helicopters might fly around SE Colorado is not going to cause the collapse of the community or cause any major disturbance. In fact if you hear one up in the air, I'd look up and be damn grateful it's someone else bothering to do that job, so you can sit on your butt and watch the prairie grass grow.

I think what I am tired of is people want all the fruits of modern society but don't want to lift a finger for it. They want to drive around in a car or heat their home, but wail and whine about if they have a oil or gas well nearby. They don't want terrorists to fly into buildings or light off a nuke and they "support the troops", but they wail if a helicopter flies over on a training mission. They want to eat, but wail and whine that meat is murder. They want a house, but are hysterical if a tree gets cut down for wood. They want iphones, computers and tv's but bellyache about nuclear or coal electricity to power all that crap.

It's time to get with the program folks. Your military does not have a training base on Mars, millions of miles from you. Your home and car is not heated and fueled by rainbows farted from obama's behind. Electricity is not magic waves created en-mass by "renewables".
 
Old 02-03-2012, 10:22 AM
 
874 posts, read 924,388 times
Reputation: 1013
Since Josseppie does like to bring up that he feels that COS is not as diversified as Pueblo and it should be a major concern I'd like to bring a bit of factual data to the discussion:



What this shows is that COS is dependent on government spending for a lot of its economy, but it actually is far more diversified than people might expect. Also, it's actually more diversified that it's tiny neighbor to the south that has a thing for state government spending. The top three industries in COS accounts for 34% of local GDP, not that diversified, but not that bad as well. For comparison, Pueblo's to three industries account for 41% of it's local GDP.

So, COS does have a nice chunk of local GDP produced by the federal government, which also drives a nice chunk of the private sector GDP, but it's not really as much as people might expect. Not half of local GDP, but more like a quarter or so.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 11:26 AM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,314 posts, read 10,465,436 times
Reputation: 13262
Interesting stats on the two cities' GDP. I think both could stand to improve but like I said, this is the truth for just about every city. Plus Colorado Springs and Pueblo live in Denver's shadow, and to a certain degree this will never change.

Now the way this relates to the original topic of the Pinon Canyon Maneuver Site expansion is that the expansion would most likely result in a long term boost to the local economy of both cities, with Colorado Springs taking the lion's share of that.

I say this because with the Army's force reduction program beginning consolidation and cost saving efforts, it is entirely likely that they would move units from other bases to Fort Carson for easy (read: inexpensive) access to the PCMS. It is also possible that the Army would stand up a full time cadre at the facility for maintenance issues.

Now with all that said, I am actually against the expansion. I am pro-military (I'm IN the military) but I just cannot stand the idea of ranchers losing their property, some of which has been in their families for well over 100 years, to the imminent domain process. The Army does already have some pretty expansive maneuver sites already at its disposal and I'm not certain how this little corner of the globe is crucial to their developing doctrine.

On a side note, my parents live in Trinidad, which is close to PCMS. They have told me that there a lot of intimidation from the expansion opposition toward those who have been willing to sell. They know people who have been threatened and ordered to not approach the Army with a willingness to do business.

I wonder how wide-spread this is? I trust my parents on the subject, but was disappointed when I could not find any documented story on this side of this issue. Perhaps someone else has heard a similar story, or has documented proof?

Of course, the bottom line for now is that the expansion efforts have been banned by Congress for now. I don't see that changing any time soon.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
12,102 posts, read 20,365,466 times
Reputation: 4132
Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Since Josseppie does like to bring up that he feels that COS is not as diversified as Pueblo and it should be a major concern I'd like to bring a bit of factual data to the discussion:



What this shows is that COS is dependent on government spending for a lot of its economy, but it actually is far more diversified than people might expect. Also, it's actually more diversified that it's tiny neighbor to the south that has a thing for state government spending. The top three industries in COS accounts for 34% of local GDP, not that diversified, but not that bad as well. For comparison, Pueblo's to three industries account for 41% of it's local GDP.

So, COS does have a nice chunk of local GDP produced by the federal government, which also drives a nice chunk of the private sector GDP, but it's not really as much as people might expect. Not half of local GDP, but more like a quarter or so.
I want to say that this a great thread to really look at the impact the military has on southern Colorado and something I have wondered about since I was in high school.

What I have found is the 30% of the Springs economy is directly related to military spending of the bases and the Air Force Academy. That does not include all the contractors and space industry that is there because of the military. It, also, does not include all the secondary spending that comes about because of the military such as retail, construction, etc. All in all I think that at least 50% or more of the economy is related to military and that is not a diversified economy at all.

Finally I want to say this is one area where Pueblo should not be a city the Springs should be like because our lack of diversity caused the economic problem in the 80's we are still recovering from and why I think I am always harping on cities, especially Colorado Springs, to be more diversified.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 01:55 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,314 posts, read 10,465,436 times
Reputation: 13262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie View Post
I want to say that this a great thread to really look at the impact the military has on southern Colorado and something I have wondered about since I was in high school.

What I have found is the 30% of the Springs economy is directly related to military spending of the bases and the Air Force Academy. That does not include all the contractors and space industry that is there because of the military. It, also, does not include all the secondary spending that comes about because of the military such as retail, construction, etc. All in all I think that at least 50% or more of the economy is related to military and that is not a diversified economy at all.

Finally I want to say this is one area where Pueblo should not be a city the Springs should be like because our lack of diversity caused the economic problem in the 80's we are still recovering from and why I think I am always harping on cities, especially Colorado Springs, to be more diversified.
The facts just slipped right by you, didn't they? 30% is your number that you have made up. 14% is the factual number as of 2008 when the table a few posts above was compiled. It is a reasonable deduction that other sectors of the economy enjoy second and third order effects from military presence but it is not as extreme as you are making out to be. It's fine that you do not like Colorado Springs, but you really should stop making stuff up to support your arguments.
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