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Old 02-03-2012, 02:59 PM
 
506 posts, read 327,992 times
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^^Well, the data does not corroborate your claim of 30%, it's 14% direct military and 4% federal civilian. I'm not sure if the federal civilian includes DoD civilian employees or if that's wrapped up into the military spending. Either way direct military outlays are way less than the 30% you claim.

A big chunk, but not as a dominant factor as is commonly assumed.

 
Old 02-03-2012, 03:07 PM
 
17,382 posts, read 24,649,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
^^Well, the data does not corroborate your claim of 30%, it's 14% direct military and 4% federal civilian. I'm not sure if the federal civilian includes DoD civilian employees or if that's wrapped up into the military spending. Either way direct military outlays are way less than the 30% you claim.

A big chunk, but not as a dominant factor as is commonly assumed.
We're getting more non-defense IT these days; FEDEX is moving all of its data center operations to COLO SPGS from Memphis (a big chunk is already here) as our cool dry climate and low utility rates save them millions per year in chilled water cooling costs.

FEDEX shared this with Wal-Mart and now Wal-Mart is building its data center along Voyager Pkwy off of Federal.

Our military footprint in COLO SPGS is here to stay.

Back on topic, I can understand the issues of the folks in S.E. Colorado, I really do, but I have to keep an open mind on PCMA.
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Old 02-03-2012, 04:36 PM
Status: "CSU P football at the NCAA national championship!" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
10,364 posts, read 11,951,968 times
Reputation: 3125
Let me back up what I posted then:

This is from the Colorado Springs Chamber of Commerce, Military affairs division:

The Division also serves as an advocate for the defense and aerospace industry in our community. These business sectors represent an important and growing part of our economy. Together, the military and the businesses that support the military and its programs, represent a direct and indirect impact of nearly 30-35% on our regionís economy.

The link: Military Affairs

As I posted this does not include the multiplier affect of people who work on the industries spending money in the community on construction, retail, restaurants, entertainment etc. The added construction in the Pikes Peak Region alone represents hundreds of millions of dollars. I have seen many articles on it. However the total impact is something I cant find the numbers on but going from what I know at PEDCo its usually a 3 to 1 ratio so conservatively that should make the economic impact another 20% maybe more giving the total military economic impact on Colorado Springs at least at 50% maybe more. I tried calling the Colorado Springs Chamber but its already after hours.

Then while looking up the numbers I found this interesting article from the Denver Post:

WASHINGTON ó If politicians here fail to reach agreement in achieving $1.2 trillion in deficit-reduction savings by Thanksgiving, Colorado Springs stands to lose big. The city, heavily dependent on an economic churn of military and defense contracting, undoubtedly faces gigantic cuts to those areas.


The link: Colorado Springs could take economic bullet if deficit panel fails to reach accord - The Denver Post


Another thing I found interesting is the Springs is a top 10 city in the nation for Defense jobs:


6. Colorado Springs: With two Air Force Bases and the U.S. Air Force Academy, the aerospace industry is only second to tourism in Colorado Springs. The focus is on highly technical missions, chiefly systems engineering and space surveillance.


The link: Top 10 Cities for Defense Jobs | Military.com


My conclusion is the economy is to reliant on the military and defense related business.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
6,842 posts, read 4,335,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josseppie View Post
Together, the military and the businesses that support the military and its programs, represent a direct and indirect impact of nearly 30-35% on our regionís economy.

...

As I posted this does not include the multiplier affect of people who work on the industries spending money in the community on construction, retail, restaurants, entertainment etc.
Yes it does. What exactly do you think an "indirect affect" is? Good job with finally citing something, but it actually supports what me, Mike, and a few others have already asserted. Nobody is denying that the defense sector of Colorado Springs' economy is huge. But it ranges in the 1/3 area, not 1/2 or more.

Also, nobody is denying that reductions in defense spending have the potential to put a dent in the Colorado Springs economy. But the city's economy is more diverse than you give it credit for. I hope you will not be too disappointed when Colorado Springs weathers a (potential) economic setback but doesn't fall flat on its face the way Pueblo did in the 1980s.

Speaking of the 1980s, remember how that decade saw a huge build up of military force, culminating in the Gulf War? Then post-Cold War, President Clinton put the military through some significant downsizing efforts and cut defense spending, and Colorado Springs did just fine in the 1990s.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 05:29 PM
Status: "CSU P football at the NCAA national championship!" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Pueblo - Colorado's Second City
10,364 posts, read 11,951,968 times
Reputation: 3125
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Yes it does. What exactly do you think an "indirect affect" is? Good job with finally citing something, but it actually supports what me, Mike, and a few others have already asserted. Nobody is denying that the defense sector of Colorado Springs' economy is huge. But it ranges in the 1/3 area, not 1/2 or more.

Also, nobody is denying that reductions in defense spending have the potential to put a dent in the Colorado Springs economy. But the city's economy is more diverse than you give it credit for. I hope you will not be too disappointed when Colorado Springs weathers a (potential) economic setback but doesn't fall flat on its face the way Pueblo did in the 1980s.

Speaking of the 1980s, remember how that decade saw a huge build up of military force, culminating in the Gulf War? Then post-Cold War, President Clinton put the military through some significant downsizing efforts and cut defense spending, and Colorado Springs did just fine in the 1990s.
How much of the tourism is related to the military? How much of the housing and construction industry? I agree I think anything greater then 50% is to much but I think the actual impact of the entire military, space and defense sector on the Colorado Springs economy is somewhere in between 30% and 50%. If the cut backs come as expected how will that impact the economy? According to the Denver Post it won't be good.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 05:32 PM
 
17,382 posts, read 24,649,659 times
Reputation: 12769
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Then post-Cold War, President Clinton put the military through some significant downsizing efforts and cut defense spending, and Colorado Springs did just fine in the 1990s.
The draw down started before Clinton came into office. Bush sent the Army's V Corps out of Germany to fight in Desert Storm and after that war was over he sent them directly back to the states and mustered them out. Clinton continued it when he came into office.

In fact, in August of 1990, as my agency was furiously loading the 24th ID into 8 large ships in the port of Savannah, GA, we were watching a video of the Army Chief of Staff (Sullivan?) tell us that we were going to downsize the Army now that the USSR and Warsaw Pact had dissolved, but that this time we were going "to do it right." I'm not sure they ever "do it right" but the downsizing did start 2+ years before Clinton was sworn in. Throughout that video he kept repeating "no more Task Force Smith" which was our hastily assembled force that was thrown into battle at the start of the Korean War and was mauled pretty bad.
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 02-03-2012 at 05:55 PM..
 
Old 02-03-2012, 05:39 PM
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
6,842 posts, read 4,335,395 times
Reputation: 8238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
...I'm not sure they ever "do it right"...
Laughs. Ain't that the truth!
 
Old 02-05-2012, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Southeastern Colorado
317 posts, read 352,137 times
Reputation: 414
Article in The Pueblo Chieftain, Sunday, February 5:

Army plan for copters reignites long feud - The Pueblo Chieftain: Local News
 
Old 02-05-2012, 08:53 PM
 
Location: playing in the colorful Colorado dirt
4,487 posts, read 2,479,330 times
Reputation: 6796
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
500 feet has always been the standard AFAIK. It's not like that is the altitude they fly at all the time, just the minimum.
500' minimum? Hardly.

We live on a ranch in north Pueblo county and the Blackhawks from Carson fly much lower than 500' around here. Just a little higher than treetop level at times.

I figure if I can see the pilot, the helo's too low.
 
Old 02-05-2012, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
1,581 posts, read 2,408,526 times
Reputation: 1638
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
It's always hilarious to me how people always want the benefit of everything in society but don't want it in their backyard or municipality.

...

I read all the links posted. It's the usual anti American, anti military surrender monkeys that would gladly support terrorists attacking the USA(we deserve it, so they say) and the usual enviroterrorists that don't want any human impact on the land for any purpose at all. No defense, no food, no energy, no shelter.
I think that's a pretty fierce statement right there. I also think it's unjustified and wrong.

Our military takes up an inordinate amount of our federal budget. It establishes our means of influence primarily by force. It requires vast amounts of resources in order to survive - resources that could also be allocated elsewhere, and does so under the notion that without a military of this scale, all 50 states would fall in a day...all of this supported by an industry of people who need it to keep going because the military is a ruthlessly efficient economic driver. Killing people means we need more weapons, more technology and the ability to build new infrastructure after everything has been blown up.

And you know what? I don't hate the military. I don't think we should disband it. I DO think we spend way too much time, money and energy believing that we are imperial Rome out for glory and conquest in the guise of securing the "Homeland" (how totalitarian a term is that?) We live in a culture now that largely believes that military aims should trump all others...environmental, agricultural, energy and human rights.

I honestly don't know enough about the situation in SE Colorado. I can't make the call. But for people that live there, it might just be that they value their part of their country more than they value having another base of operations for a bloated organization whose job it is to blow things up and kill people in a time of relative peace.

And I am so sorry to all the service members that don't get to experience that peace...but politics has deemed perpetual war to be preferable to ACTUALLY accomplishing strategic mission objectives and achieving peaceful ends. I will not vote for those demagogues that created and maintained this state of affairs, but unfortunately I'm one person in a sea of people that are SO AFRAID of EVERYTHING in the world that doesn't fly a Star Spangled Banner that they DEMAND we persist in breaking things and killing people until that day when we are sanctioned officially SAFE...a day that, under rules like these, will never arrive.

There is more to life than the notion that DEFENSE is everything...if you have little left to defend then it seems scarcely worthwhile to some people to protect it. Yes, we DO have many great liberties worth fighting for, but we're busy tearing them apart from the inside as it is...and our own military is helpless to protect us against our own willful self destruction.

I grew up a military brat. I am a supporter of American soldiers, sailors and airmen. I've served myself.

But promoting the idea of militarism dominating everything else in our culture in the name of "freedom" and "defense" to the exclusion of all else is a kind of intellectual cowaradice...a refusal to acknowledge that the PURPOSE of all this defense...is so that we have a lifestyle worth living.
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