U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-08-2012, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,437,159 times
Reputation: 7702

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
KaaBoom wrote: Your view point is what sounds extreme to me. As a free human being, I take offense to you telling me that I don't have a right to drive on the public roads that I pay taxes to support. I think you need to read up on the constitution a little bit.

I'm guessing that Jim is merely referring to the statement in the drivers manual where it informs us that driving is a privelege. From the perspective of paying taxes, then it is a right in my mind too....as long as you can do what it takes to pass the driving test. Even with the driving test, there are still alot of incompetent drivers on the road, and there would be even more without a drivers test administered at the level of the government. A drivers test is a necessary evil in my mind.
I don't have issues with drivers tests. Even though as you point out, they don't do a very good job of testing people.

What I have issues with, is calling driving a privilege. Thats just part of a police state tactic to brainwash people into believing that their rights are merely a privilege. The Constitution guarantees rights, not privileges.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-08-2012, 08:11 PM
 
Location: 80904 West siiiiiide!
2,866 posts, read 7,098,661 times
Reputation: 1543
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
I don't have issues with drivers tests. Even though as you point out, they don't do a very good job of testing people.

What I have issues with, is calling driving a privilege. Thats just part of a police state tactic to brainwash people into believing that their rights are merely a privilege. The Constitution guarantees rights, not privileges.

I'm not saying I dissagree, but where in the bill of rights does it guarantee your right to a driver's license? Yes, technically, driving a car on government owned roads, is a priveledge that's afforded to you when you take the apporpriate test, and pay the fees (taxes)

But the government can't simply take away your license for no reason, there has to be due process, and an infraction committed. This isn't Nazi Germany. Yet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-08-2012, 10:41 PM
 
9,816 posts, read 19,023,867 times
Reputation: 7537
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
You don't believe the Colorado Springs Gazette? Don't you think the Colorado Springs Police Department would have issued a statement denying the allegations, if the story was not true?

Getting them to purge the database is going to be easier said then done.
Journalists are not infallible and in that article I did not find the smoking gun that says 100% for sure there is a database.

If there is in fact one that exists it needs to be purged and further action needs to be taken. Citizens always need to remember that those in government work for us, we don't work for them and pressure needs to be tabled by local citizens.

Cops are not infallible people either. I've known a lot of cops and work with some and they are all not perfect human beings and when you have data like this floating around, it's never a good idea.

Other than that I don't have a problem with these ANPR systems, as long as they do their job of finding vehicles and occupants that warrant further scrutiny and not used as information harvesters.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-08-2012, 11:48 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 5,838,130 times
Reputation: 2615
Wink A few thoughts along this path

Having initiated this discussion, I'll touch now upon some of the points raised. The topic most closely has to do with what expectation of privacy one should have on Colorado's roads; and while wishing to remain with that, some tangential aspects are relevant as well.

One proposition presented is that one should have no expectation of privacy in public. At face value this seems obvious, yet in reality we all do. As example, if at a restaurant one would commonly not expect a stranger to seat themselves at our table unless invited, even though this is a public space. The degree differs among societies, but even in public we expect a certain amount of physical distance, and respect of it. Nor at said restaurant or elsewhere would one necessarily expect or approve of another recording their private conversation and broadcasting it to all other diners, or perhaps the world via the internet. In short, we do have expectations of civil behavior regarding privacy, even beyond one's home.

Benjamin Franklin, on departing Independence Hall at the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, is said to have been asked by a woman, "Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?"

His tart reply: "A republic, if you can keep it."

I spoke once with a park ranger on entering Rocky Mountain National Park about the mountain pine beetles and the health of its forests. His answer was disturbing. He was an older fellow, seemingly close to retirement, and he replied that he didn't much care, as he expected probably personally long gone before the worst of this fully manifested in Colorado. This from someone presumably with at least a respect of nature, if only manning the entrance station, collecting cash and handing out maps.

The history of Rome serves as excellent example of what has transpired throughout human history: there are no guarantees, and that gained through hard work and sacrifice can be lost easily by others, if not through one's very fingers. This nation would not be what it is today, or even exist, if our founding fathers attitude had been another generation could see to the problems they could not care to address. For a good many of them their very life was on the line, per the resolve of each. Nor will the promise of this nation remain if all those of stout heart and purpose do not all they might this very day to rectify wrongs and seek the best path forward.

Ultimately there are no "rights." Privileges are granted by masters as they see fit. Rights are earned by those willing to accept nothing less. They are not necessarily inherent, and must be preserved through constant vigilance.

Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler did deny all Jews the right to drive in 1938. Their subjugation and eventual extermination of millions was a gradual process. Even after his democratically elected rise to power in 1933— shortly followed by the false flag Reichstag fire providing pretense for assumption of dictatorial powers—Jews fleeing persecution in Austria and elsewhere sought refuge in Berlin. As a frog in slowly boiling water, their rights were only gradually stripped, the fuller realization of their fate often only when it was too late.

One can surely enjoy what they like at Subway—for now. In San Antonio, Texas school children are being spied upon in the cafeteria with the assistance of the U.S. Department of Agriculture. At the moment this is with the permission of their parents, but that may well change, and the program likely introduced nationwide. The ostensible goal of this program is noble, in helping to alleviate the growing epidemic of childhood obesity. Using cameras and barcodes they are able to determine the exact number of calories each child has consumed in a meal. In soluble dietary fiber, sugars, proteins, and more than 100 specific measurements, everything is recorded.

One should understand that human nature can thwart the best of intentions. 1,800 students in two Philadelphia high schools were fortunate in receiving laptop computers; only later was it discovered that software had been installed to use the computers cameras to spy on them without their consent or knowledge.

The technology exists to make cameras incredibly small. If doubting this, then consider the size of the camera in many widely available commercial cell phones able to provide excellent HD photos and video. The U.S. military has for some time been developing mobile cameras that may appear and not be much larger than insects. This in conjunction with police departments across the nation rapidly developing programs for the widespread adoption and use of drone aircraft of various sizes and capabilities, including those armed, not only internationally but widely within the United States.

By design, this is all tied together. Not perfectly yet at this point, but for many years now the aim has been centralized databases collecting information on all individuals from all possible disparate sources. For instance, William Binney, a former official with the National Security Agency (commonly: NSA) claims the U.S. government currently possesses copies of almost all emails sent and received in the United States. Mr. Binney resigned from the NSA in 2001, after learning of its intent to use 9/11 as excuse to dramatically expand its data collection on U.S. citizens. As a noted mathematician and code breaker, that he helped develop has been used for over the last decade against all U.S. citizens. This program creates profiles on every person. The NSA is in the process of building a $2 billion data storage facility in Utah.

Not only cell phones can be tracked. Even without a GPS function, their location can be triangulated from nearby towers. Possibly even if not in use, their possession serves as a locating device, unless shield by such as lead. Credit cards in Europe, and surely increasingly in the U.S., use not only bar codes as identification, but also chips. These are probably RF, meaning the card and its position would be registered whenever near any able device, such as in a store, or wherever else devised. These are very small computer chips increasingly being secreted in many items, even clothing.

We have moved beyond 1984. Certainly in technology, if the mindset that would use it towards nefarious ends the same.

"This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist."
— Dwight D. Eisenhower (farewell address, January 17, 1961)

This warning to the American people is all the more relevant today. We are the very ones funding individuals and organizations antithetical to a free democratic America.

In certain areas of Colorado it is common to find bicyclists on the road. By convention they are allowed, as are pedestrians, even at times found quite slow horse drawn carriages. Many motorists naturally assume they have the greater right, with anyone else present not really belonging, all the more as likely an impediment to any fast moving vehicle. Yet these are public roads paid for and maintained with pubic funds, and public thoroughfares. Interstates present something of an exception, in only allowing motorized vehicles, yet the broader concept of access remains elsewhere. Unless everyone is willing to walk anywhere, obvious that practically speaking it is a severe limitation of anyone's liberty to deny them the ability to drive. For the aged and infirm there are practical reasons, yet to deny this right for less than very good reason is an egregious violation of assumed personal liberty shared by all Americans—the liberty to freely travel at will, unmolested, with no undue restriction.

Unless all those in Colorado and across this nation are willing to forego all rights to privacy beyond their immediate home, then in effect paying for the privilege through taxes of living within the prison cell of a house. Even not there, for with such new features as "smart" electric meters in conjunction with new chipped appliances, even energy use and personal habits within one's home is known.

None of this, at least insofar as the technology itself, is bad. Only in how used. It does remain a double edged sword that can elevate or enslave one, both perhaps in one measure or another at the same time. It is becoming rapidly possible to track and know even the most intimate aspects of any individual's life.

Ultimately society must decide, but before that each individual for themselves. Yet there are those, and more than a few within government and corporations, which have already decided this: presuming the power, and that they will retain such power, with basically no transparency of their own actions, but nearly all for everyone else. This is a reality which must be faced and dealt with—or not. Few in such positions will cede such power with grace or easily, unless no other option.

As Benjamin Franklin also said: "Those who sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety are not deserving of either liberty or safety." Most anything, even the most vile, can be reasoned a necessity on the grounds of "national security." But collectively we are at last but many individuals with presumably shared values. And to the extent even one denied their rightful place in society under a common constitution, then all are.

That applies as well to any common roadway, and presumption of what it is best used for.

Last edited by Idunn; 09-09-2012 at 12:50 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-09-2012, 04:50 AM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,142 posts, read 8,437,159 times
Reputation: 7702
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanek9freak View Post
I'm not saying I dissagree, but where in the bill of rights does it guarantee your right to a driver's license? Yes, technically, driving a car on government owned roads, is a priveledge that's afforded to you when you take the apporpriate test, and pay the fees (taxes)
A number of Supreme Court rulings say otherwise.

"The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

"The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579

"The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, in the ordinary course of life and business, is a common right which he has under the right to enjoy life and liberty, to acquire and possess property, and to pursue happiness and safety. It includes the right, in so doing, to use the ordinary and usual conveyances of the day, and under the existing modes of travel, includes the right to . . . operate an automobile thereon, for the usual and ordinary purpose of life and business." Teche Lines v Danforth, Miss., 12 S.2d 784; Thompson v. Smith, supra.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-09-2012, 07:04 AM
 
Location: 80904 West siiiiiide!
2,866 posts, read 7,098,661 times
Reputation: 1543
I didn't say the right to DRIVE, I said the right to a driver's LICENSE. No license, no drive. Unless of course you just don't care. That's the loophole, of course it may be your right to use public roads, but if your license gets revoked, well you're just not driving bxproxy of that.

The state DOES retain the right to revoke your license, if you have commited a serious enough offense.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-09-2012, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,131 posts, read 26,259,830 times
Reputation: 6815
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanek9freak View Post
I didn't say the right to DRIVE, I said the right to a driver's LICENSE. No license, no drive. Unless of course you just don't care. That's the loophole, of course it may be your right to use public roads, but if your license gets revoked, well you're just not driving bxproxy of that.

The state DOES retain the right to revoke your license, if you have commited a serious enough offense.
You're better off just not going out of the house or on-line. Eventually there will be a class of untouchables who will not be able to do that anyway since they won't be employable. We need to get used to the idea that some people will not be allowed to live outside of prison.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-09-2012, 07:44 AM
 
Location: The 719
13,645 posts, read 21,499,229 times
Reputation: 13290
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
That is one of the most stupid statements I have ever heard in my lifetime.
There went the credibility of your posts in this thread.

If this were a debate, you just lost it based on the Godwin's Law principle.

Last edited by McGowdog; 09-09-2012 at 07:56 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-10-2012, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Colorado - Oh, yeah!
833 posts, read 1,382,537 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
From what I could read, I couldn't tell if that was totally confirmed or not.

If they do have a database, then it needs to be purged.
A lot of the State and Local law enforcement choose not to store this data, not for long anyway. What is being done is they (in the general sense, not any one agency in particular) send this to one of a couple Federal databases that can keep this information for at least a couple of years and then they have the ability to query the database and see where a plate has been scanned before.

In some cases, particularly along the SW border, there are Border Patrol checkpoints that have additional cameras aimed to capture the driver and passenger in the vehicle.

I am not saying there isn't some super-secret program that can track us and identify "interesting" travel patterns, but I am not aware of one. These devices are typically used for stolen cars, known fugitives and Amber alerts. They can also be used after a crime to lead back to the driver's origin particularly in multi-state crimes and/or drug and human smuggling cases.

All of that said, not many agencies are connected like this yet. Most agencies load stolen plates or those tied to vehicles known to be involved in a crime and they simply look for hits against that relatively small list.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-10-2012, 11:11 AM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,103,855 times
Reputation: 9065
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanek9freak View Post
I didn't say the right to DRIVE, I said the right to a driver's LICENSE. No license, no drive. Unless of course you just don't care. That's the loophole, of course it may be your right to use public roads, but if your license gets revoked, well you're just not driving bxproxy of that.

The state DOES retain the right to revoke your license, if you have commited a serious enough offense.
That is why they call it a "license." It is a privilege or right granted to you by the government, dependent upon you meeting and adhering to certain conditions. If you fail to meet or adhere to those conditions, under due process, you may have those privileges or rights limited, suspended or revoked.

As to rights, there is not one single right in this country that is absolute, all are subject to some form of limitation--and always have been. Even the right to life--if you commit and egregious enough violation of the law and are convicted of said violation with due process, you can be executed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top