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Old 08-15-2013, 01:37 AM
Status: "Should have been a cowgirl!" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,323 posts, read 3,999,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
Regarding the species- wouldn't they be surviving by moving higher?
Hey there, doglover! Sorry I've been out of touch.

Yes, this is exactly why pika's and more than a few other species are beginning to turn up in new habitats - higher elevations or further north, etc.

Some people think I'm another end of days nutjob when I express my concerns, but the only "revelations" I'm interested in are the ones written by respected scientists and published in peer reviewed journals. I studied biology and climatology at the University of Colorado. Scientists are not politicians or writers of creative fiction. If a sciientist starts publishing research that is a pack of lies, the rest of the scientific community will be on to him in a moment, and that person will be completely discredited and never get another research grant or faculty position ever again. Science is pretty intolerant of liars.

The news from the front lines in the field of climatology is uniformly grim. We have passed the magic line of 400 ppm of CO2 in the earth's atmosphere. Fracking operations are adding more CO2 than ever and the climatic temperature trend has been going up all over the globe since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Over 400 ppm CO2 in our atmosphere means that global climate change is here to stay for a very long time - hundreds of years, maybe even thousands.

Colorado's poor little pika's will be long gone. The day will come when temperatures on top of even Colorado's 14-teeners will rise above 80 degrees every summer for weeks at a time, and our small friends will be left with nowhere else to go except on up to pika heaven.

Such realizations make me feel so sad. People who have lived in Colorado all their lives - old timers like me who have known the San Juans for 40 or 50 years - don't have to wade through scientific journals. We look around and see that everything is "off" somehow. It's like feeling the hair rise up on your neck when you realize there's something or someone nasty lying in wait for you in the shadows. I've talked to other long time back country folk and they feel the same way.

It's not a matter of "if" the Colorado pika will vanish, only when. That's why I keep telling everybody to get out into the mountains NOW, experience everything you possibly can out there in the natural landscape of our beautiful state. The day will come when your grandchildren or great grandchildren will want to know what it was like back in the old days in Colorado when the mountains were still covered with spruce and fir and you could catch the sight of a pika nibbling on his lunch.
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:51 AM
 
9,817 posts, read 19,080,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post

I've been making a joke here and there on this board about pika's - the little relatives of the rabbit clan who live in Colorado's timberline regions (10,000 ft or so), but actually I'm serious. They're cute little guys who are an important indicator species and as I've mentioned elsewhere, can't tolerate temps above 80 F or so. Pika's are getting scarce at timberline in the San Juans these days. They're now above timberline and climbing to avoid the increasing warming trend. I've even fantasized about going up into the high San Juans and live trapping about a 1,000 or so and introducing them into parts of the Canadian Rockies where currently they do not occur - just to try to save the species. When the day arrives that no pika can be found below 13,000 ft in elevation or more, the party will be over.
I can't find any evidence of warming.

Animals in Colorado go up and down the mountains depending on the seasons.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:30 PM
 
2,253 posts, read 5,860,553 times
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Wink This dream despoiled

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
... The news from the front lines in the field of climatology is uniformly grim. We have passed the magic line of 400 ppm of CO2 in the earth's atmosphere. Fracking operations are adding more CO2 than ever and the climatic temperature trend has been going up all over the globe since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Over 400 ppm CO2 in our atmosphere means that global climate change is here to stay for a very long time - hundreds of years, maybe even thousands.

Colorado's poor little pika's will be long gone. The day will come when temperatures on top of even Colorado's 14-teeners will rise above 80 degrees every summer for weeks at a time, and our small friends will be left with nowhere else to go except on up to pika heaven.

Such realizations make me feel so sad. People who have lived in Colorado all their lives - old timers like me who have known the San Juans for 40 or 50 years - don't have to wade through scientific journals. We look around and see that everything is "off" somehow. It's like feeling the hair rise up on your neck when you realize there's something or someone nasty lying in wait for you in the shadows. I've talked to other long time back country folk and they feel the same way.

It's not a matter of "if" the Colorado pika will vanish, only when. That's why I keep telling everybody to get out into the mountains NOW, experience everything you possibly can out there in the natural landscape of our beautiful state. The day will come when your grandchildren or great grandchildren will want to know what it was like back in the old days in Colorado when the mountains were still covered with spruce and fir and you could catch the sight of a pika nibbling on his lunch.


Unfortunately, entirely true.

Among changes that the National Park Service has documented are high elevation species, such as the alpine chipmunk and pika, moving upslope in Great Basin and Yosemite national parks to find climatic conditions similar to that they once had. Thereby reducing the effective area of their survival.

This from a 2009 NPS document discussing the widespread changes to our national parks, whether sea rise in Everglades NP, or less snow in Rocky Mountain NP. While the migration of pikas in Rocky Mountain NP was not specifically mentioned in this one document, if asking, the NPS would likely point to the same there. Presumably, although as a government agency they like to hedge their bets. Even as climatic change is recognized by the NPS as a serious problem threatening all our national parks—and documents such as this seeking various inadequate adjustments to that—they still say that this upslope migration of the pika may be attributable to changes in climate.

RMNP has 100 square miles of alpine habitat. Being one of the reasons it was designated a national park in the first place, to protect this. Yet it is being lost as we speak. Colorado State University researchers estimate that a 5 rise in temperature (being that and more, basically a given by the close of this century) would eliminate half the park's tundra. In the Great Basin the pika is already disappearing from former habitats, and, no surprise, first from those southern and warmer. It is only that they have more latitude in RMNP, which may be their last refuge in the continental United States.

Not only is alpine tundra fragile, vulnerable as well to climatic changes expressed as changes in vegetation, new pests and predators, reduced winter snowpack, and more extreme weather. The pika is representative of the threats faced by many species, whether alpine or even mammal. Pika do migrate to an extent. On hot summer afternoons they must descend to cooler, moist talus rock piles at the base of mountain slopes. As average temperatures rise, their only option to abandon former homes and move further upslope to less familiar, and perhaps suitable, terrain—until able to move no higher.

400ppm of CO2 in our atmosphere (recently recorded at Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii), is the point of no return we were warned of and never supposed to reach. A level not having been seen on this planet in hundreds of millions of years, and unique in our having attained it in but a few centuries of industrialization. It is the point where everything begins to dramatically change for the worse. As well, about exactly where we cannot easily return from that done, with indeed many changes irrevocably in the cards now—even if all greenhouse emissions were halted today.

Which, of course, is anything but the case. Collectively, mankind only INCREASES our greenhouse emissions year on year. Something like having watched the fire in your kitchen spread to your living room, and then dousing it with a fire hose of gasoline.

These changes are global. The Great Barrier Reef off northeastern Australia, being a World Heritage site, has lost half its coral in about the last 30 years. Yet the province of Queensland takes an indifferent approach to agricultural runoff and sources of sediment, even wishing a major dredging operation towards more mining.

Tourists driving through Rocky Mountain NP may not notice that there is less snowpack on the high peaks, or the context to understand that the rivers are running lower than before, or troubled with unhealthy doses of airborne deposition of nitrogen and other pollutants, expressed in such as greater incidence of algae. They'd have a harder time missing all the many dead trees, and all the more significantly so on the west side of this park. They may shake their head, perhaps lament that it ruins the photo they wished to take, and in some cursory information provided by RMNP read a sign or talk to a ranger (mostly in but name, and chances are receiving then even less knowledge) and come to the incorrect conclusion that all this devastation can be put down to the mountain pine beetle. Which is anything but the case. What they are viewing in starkest contrast is the direct result of our former decisions and actions, and continued indifference now. Perhaps everyone could go out there and put their name on a dead tree, with in some warped pride a sign proclaiming: "I KILLED THIS TREE!" As collectively no less true, although it would take far more than the entire population of Colorado to have enough individual signs.

So, yes, we might take note of that still here and enjoy it while we might. Those old and wise enough to have witnessed and learned from what has already transpired can only lament these changes. But as well possibly educate enough that by some miracle we do not all in the end go over this cliff, because at the moment nothing but speeding towards it.

We alive today are guaranteed wars, pestilence and famine in result, not to mention all the greater environmental ruin. And even some measure of this even if we find a way to reform ourselves.

But a rueful moment indeed if the day comes when one might only tell stories. To those young, their rightful legacy on this planet stolen. And speak of the pika and others who once happily existed, and do no more. Or why so obviously in what one's home has become how such things as fresh air, and clean clear waters rushing down from snowcapped mountain peaks to verdant green below, or the pika, seem but fantasy and truly some dream that never was.

Last edited by Idunn; 08-15-2013 at 12:41 PM..
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Old 08-16-2013, 03:03 AM
Status: "Should have been a cowgirl!" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,323 posts, read 3,999,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
I can't find any evidence of warming.

Animals in Colorado go up and down the mountains depending on the seasons.
Oh, please. Look, if you want to pretend that the entire scientific community has suddenly decided to tell the world fairy tales, then I suggest you just get on your little sailing ship and float off the end of the earth along with the rest of everyone else sleep walking into oblivion.

I don't like to be harsh with people, but the environmental destruction that lies ahead is going to be horrific. The time for cheap shots, trite remarks, and bizarre tea party inspired propaganda was past before it began. If you wish to comment on this grievious situation at least take a class in science 101 and get back to us.

I have absolutely zero patience at this point with people who are part of the herd of sheep whose willful ignorance and refusal to act has already destroyed our planet.

Shut up or else go post your ignorant remarks to the gang on that horrible politics forum. They'll love you. We don't.

Yours,
- Rambler
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Old 08-16-2013, 03:47 AM
Status: "Should have been a cowgirl!" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,323 posts, read 3,999,750 times
Reputation: 9559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idunn View Post
Unfortunately, entirely true.

Among changes that the National Park Service has documented are high elevation species, such as the alpine chipmunk and pika, moving upslope in Great Basin and Yosemite national parks to find climatic conditions similar to that they once had. Thereby reducing the effective area of their survival.

This from a 2009 NPS document discussing the widespread changes to our national parks, whether sea rise in Everglades NP, or less snow in Rocky Mountain NP. While the migration of pikas in Rocky Mountain NP was not specifically mentioned in this one document, if asking, the NPS would likely point to the same there. Presumably, although as a government agency they like to hedge their bets. Even as climatic change is recognized by the NPS as a serious problem threatening all our national parks—and documents such as this seeking various inadequate adjustments to that—they still say that this upslope migration of the pika may be attributable to changes in climate.

RMNP has 100 square miles of alpine habitat. Being one of the reasons it was designated a national park in the first place, to protect this. Yet it is being lost as we speak. Colorado State University researchers estimate that a 5 rise in temperature (being that and more, basically a given by the close of this century) would eliminate half the park's tundra. In the Great Basin the pika is already disappearing from former habitats, and, no surprise, first from those southern and warmer. It is only that they have more latitude in RMNP, which may be their last refuge in the continental United States.

Not only is alpine tundra fragile, vulnerable as well to climatic changes expressed as changes in vegetation, new pests and predators, reduced winter snowpack, and more extreme weather. The pika is representative of the threats faced by many species, whether alpine or even mammal. Pika do migrate to an extent. On hot summer afternoons they must descend to cooler, moist talus rock piles at the base of mountain slopes. As average temperatures rise, their only option to abandon former homes and move further upslope to less familiar, and perhaps suitable, terrain—until able to move no higher.

400ppm of CO2 in our atmosphere (recently recorded at Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii), is the point of no return we were warned of and never supposed to reach. A level not having been seen on this planet in hundreds of millions of years, and unique in our having attained it in but a few centuries of industrialization. It is the point where everything begins to dramatically change for the worse. As well, about exactly where we cannot easily return from that done, with indeed many changes irrevocably in the cards now—even if all greenhouse emissions were halted today.

Which, of course, is anything but the case. Collectively, mankind only INCREASES our greenhouse emissions year on year. Something like having watched the fire in your kitchen spread to your living room, and then dousing it with a fire hose of gasoline.

These changes are global. The Great Barrier Reef off northeastern Australia, being a World Heritage site, has lost half its coral in about the last 30 years. Yet the province of Queensland takes an indifferent approach to agricultural runoff and sources of sediment, even wishing a major dredging operation towards more mining.

Tourists driving through Rocky Mountain NP may not notice that there is less snowpack on the high peaks, or the context to understand that the rivers are running lower than before, or troubled with unhealthy doses of airborne deposition of nitrogen and other pollutants, expressed in such as greater incidence of algae. They'd have a harder time missing all the many dead trees, and all the more significantly so on the west side of this park. They may shake their head, perhaps lament that it ruins the photo they wished to take, and in some cursory information provided by RMNP read a sign or talk to a ranger (mostly in but name, and chances are receiving then even less knowledge) and come to the incorrect conclusion that all this devastation can be put down to the mountain pine beetle. Which is anything but the case. What they are viewing in starkest contrast is the direct result of our former decisions and actions, and continued indifference now. Perhaps everyone could go out there and put their name on a dead tree, with in some warped pride a sign proclaiming: "I KILLED THIS TREE!" As collectively no less true, although it would take far more than the entire population of Colorado to have enough individual signs.

So, yes, we might take note of that still here and enjoy it while we might. Those old and wise enough to have witnessed and learned from what has already transpired can only lament these changes. But as well possibly educate enough that by some miracle we do not all in the end go over this cliff, because at the moment nothing but speeding towards it.

We alive today are guaranteed wars, pestilence and famine in result, not to mention all the greater environmental ruin. And even some measure of this even if we find a way to reform ourselves.

But a rueful moment indeed if the day comes when one might only tell stories. To those young, their rightful legacy on this planet stolen. And speak of the pika and others who once happily existed, and do no more. Or why so obviously in what one's home has become how such things as fresh air, and clean clear waters rushing down from snowcapped mountain peaks to verdant green below, or the pika, seem but fantasy and truly some dream that never was.
Idunn, I can no longer bear to read the findings of scientists in the fields of forestry, animal and plant ecology, bioclimatology and all the rest. I read your post with tears in my eyes. Why oh why are so few people willing to recognize the truth?

I hope those CEO's from the petroleum companies who hired all those quacks to pretend to be experts and spread terrible lies about what's actually going on, along with everyone else who did their best to cloud the issue for some selfish agenda spend eternity in the very lowest rungs of hell.

I studied climatology at the University of Colorado back in the late 70's. We knew what was coming then. What we didn't know back then was that the population would be too complacent, too ignorant, too invested in some party line to listen. We didn't realize that even worse than not listening, they'd set up some fake scientific propaganda machine to tell lies that will result in the death of our planet as we now know it, as well as the deaths of millions of people thanks to loss of croplands, rising sea levels, drought and all the rest.

The day will come when a group of people will sit around a campfire and speak of the myths of time past and curse their ancestors - those of us now alive who did nothing, only continued to lead their comfortable lives of denial down to the last drop of fracked shale oil and the last lump of strip mined coal and the very last Pika, trapped up at 14,000 ft in RMNP with no where to go to escape.

When I go out into the mountains I walk through the beetle kill, the infestations of other insects, the scars from recent fires and I apologize to the pines for the transgressions of man.

Mankind is no different different than any other species. We have exceeded the carrying capacity of our planet and the population numbers of our species will crash. In my darker moments I hope the fate of mankind is extinction. We have destroyed our own habitat along with the habitats of every single species still remaining on this earth. What else should we expect?

Yes, let us write the name of wanneroo and all the rest on the trees. You take RMNP and I'll take the San Juans along with the Uncomphaghre Plateau.

I remain on in the Four Corners for the sole purpose of bidding farewell to this place I have loved for all of my life. I go to the mountains to cry.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:13 AM
 
9,817 posts, read 19,080,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
Oh, please. Look, if you want to pretend that the entire scientific community has suddenly decided to tell the world fairy tales, then I suggest you just get on your little sailing ship and float off the end of the earth along with the rest of everyone else sleep walking into oblivion.

I don't like to be harsh with people, but the environmental destruction that lies ahead is going to be horrific. The time for cheap shots, trite remarks, and bizarre tea party inspired propaganda was past before it began. If you wish to comment on this grievious situation at least take a class in science 101 and get back to us.

I have absolutely zero patience at this point with people who are part of the herd of sheep whose willful ignorance and refusal to act has already destroyed our planet.

Shut up or else go post your ignorant remarks to the gang on that horrible politics forum. They'll love you. We don't.

Yours,
- Rambler
Well there hasn't been any warming in recent years and if anything it's gotten cooler. Science is not set in stone and plenty of those people like Michael Mann have been debunked as frauds.

In case you haven't noticed there are tons of stories out there talking about befuddled scientists whose predictions from the 1990's have not come true.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:39 AM
Status: "Should have been a cowgirl!" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,323 posts, read 3,999,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
Well there hasn't been any warming in recent years and if anything it's gotten cooler. Science is not set in stone and plenty of those people like Michael Mann have been debunked as frauds.

In case you haven't noticed there are tons of stories out there talking about befuddled scientists whose predictions from the 1990's have not come true.
As far as I'm concerned you are trolling this thread. You keep making posts that belong in the politics forum. You don't have a clue regarding what we are posting about - especially my posts and those of Idunn among other forum members. This is a grievious situation and we feel grief stricken in the face of it. Your posts are the equivalent to those of a immature 13-year old smart assing off in detention hall by contrast.

You know nothing about science or the environment. The ignorance you display is appalling. Go embarass yourself elsewhere. Post in a thread more appropriate to your own agenda or start a new thread to expound about your wisdom in. You are acting in an incredibly rude manner, all things considered.

Now, I have explained to you twice and I won't reply to you in this thread again.

Last edited by Colorado Rambler; 08-16-2013 at 11:50 AM..
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Old 08-16-2013, 02:05 PM
 
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Wink That to come

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
Well there hasn't been any warming in recent years and if anything it's gotten cooler. Science is not set in stone and plenty of those people like Michael Mann have been debunked as frauds.

In case you haven't noticed there are tons of stories out there talking about befuddled scientists whose predictions from the 1990's have not come true.



"The past decade has clearly been the warmest decade on record. But the rate of warming in the last 15 years has been slower than it was in the 20 years before that. And that’s despite the fact that greenhouse gases are piling up in the atmosphere at a record pace." [1]

"A review of the latest research on the Arctic says the accelerating loss of sea ice is kicking the legs out from under the entire northern dinner table with consequences for large animals and tiny plants alike." [2]



Personally, I welcome contrary points of view. There are always two sides to an issue, if the facts often more closely aligned with one side than the other. Censorship is an evil, but the most insidious iteration is that which lies within us, and that we choose not to see.

So, yes, the rate of global warming has slowed of late. Scientists remain unsure exactly how to explain it. What is one to make of this, perhaps that all this fuss was for nothing and we can safely continue with business-as-usual? Hardly.

I'll mention a few points from the first reference as it provides a good overview of this question. But the interested world citizen need not stop there, nor should; there is a wealth of solid information out there for those seeking it.

That anything is slowing can be put down in part to no more than minor scientific error, the rounding up or down of a relative fraction. Earlier climate models had put the expected rate of increase with a given greenhouse input at 1C to 2.5C. With it understood the climate modeling is a recently new science, not yet entirely understood or perfected, greatly dependent upon massive computing power which might still be more. The newer understanding is that this rate will be more like 0.9C to 2C. Thus the "cooling," if but an adjustment of expectations. Although a further recalculation of this data has the figure possibly likely at 0.7C to 2.5C.[1]

It is also felt—and this yet not entirely understood—that the oceans could now be absorbing a greater amount of greenhouse gases than once or assumed. As it stands, they currently absorb more than 90 percent of greenhouse gases. If some scientific doubt on how this correlates to a recorded recent lower rate of global temperature rise, the long term implications are nothing less than stark.

One analogy would be in returning to a cold house, turning on the heat, and then waiting some time for all to warm up. The walls, the couch, all are cold to the touch initially. Yet when all at last cozy the heat can and must be turned off at times, with the ambient temperature remaining much the same. Our oceans serve as much the same kind of heat sink, as anyone familiar with water will understand: whether in a hot bath, or in waiting for water to come to a boil on the stove.

But this can not continue. The oceans are warming, which represents a great amount of latent heat. They can only absorb so much. They are headed towards becoming more acidic, which with greater warmth will fundamentally change their current ecosystem and ability to sustain life. Widespread coral bleaching is one current ongoing manifestation of this. And, yes, the United States has coral reefs which are being negatively affected. Air temperatures can be fickle, but when our oceans reach capacity the results will be massive and basically uncorrectable. Imagine filling a cup with water (which in this instance would be heat), and all is fine until the water at last fills to the rim—and then even a drop more will run over the top. If perhaps the better analogy one of those Japanese water features, the bamboo ones where water from a fountain slowly fills up the cup—and then at a moment the line is crossed and it tips to spill all out.

However one wishes to consider variations, we are still on pace to DOUBLE (from pre-industrial levels) the amount of greenhouse gases on this planet by the end of this century. We have just crossed a distinct line with 400ppm measured. At the current pace of output we will easily exceed a temperature increase of 2C. By 2100 carbon in the atmosphere is projected to measure about 560ppm.[1]

The observant will already have noticed various signs of this change at their own home. It can be reflected in the earlier onset of spring, heavier rains, mega wildfires, alternations in the habits of animals. If various natural catastrophes have been with mankind since inception, some of those of the last few years surely of our own making. A scientific certainty that warmer average global temperatures will result in more extreme weather events, whether that be more rain and snow in places, less in others, less snow/more rain, etc., and all events harsher.

Look to the farther outliers, and on this planet the Arctic and Greenland are most affected and changing most rapidly. NASA satellite evidence shows perennial ice cover in the Arctic being only 30 percent of the ocean. For the first time in recorded history the Northwest Passage between Atlantic and Pacific oceans was ice-free.[3] Somewhere between 2054 and 2058 the Arctic ocean is expected the novelty of being entirely free of ice and melted in September. [4]

Appreciation of this by the vested power centers of humans?: Good. Now we can ship more quickly and inexpensively via the Northwest Passage. As well, look at all the new opportunities for oil exploitation.

Consequences will not be minimal. For one, the chain of life in the Arctic will be fundamentally altered. “The loss of over two million square kilometres of Arctic sea ice since the end of the last century represents a stunning loss of habitat.”[2] Algae and plankton depend on that sea ice, with they together representing 57 percent of all food in the northern oceans. Or, in the other words, the basis of it. The more notable plight of polar bears is just the tip of that iceberg of cascading disasters.

Those that could care less about Arctic foxes or most any form of life other than themselves will still be affected. The large amount of snow and ice at either pole has a basic effect on global weather patterns. With less ice less solar radiation is reflected back into space, more absorbed into ice and ocean in an ever escalating feedback cycle. The effects will radiate out. One significant could be in the altering or even halt of various ocean currents. There has been some notable unusual fluctuations already. The California Current sweeping down from the North Pacific is why the water is as cold off the coast of the western United States. As well why its weather remains as it is. Alteration or loss of the North Atlantic Drift and Norwegian Current would fundamentally alter the climate in Europe. That heavily populated edge of the continent is only as relatively temperate at such an elevated latitude due these warming currents issuing from the Gulf Stream.

We are playing with nothing less than fire here. Since before recorded history mankind has been involved in various wars and other atrocities on a daily basis. Battles of antiquity saw the carnage of literally many tens of thousands in a single afternoon, and that with little more than swords, before such advancements as the atomic bomb. Seemingly little has changed. We continue as before, only now with more advanced technology to enhance that done.

What have we learned? We like to think of ourselves as noble creatures, the noblest of them all and supreme, but remain the one single species engaged in rapidly destroying life upon this planet and the basis for it. By some measures, far from being the most noble, we are the most regrettable. The very one, were we to vanish, that would see the gradual natural improvement of this planet towards the betterment of all other life.

There is a natural carrying capacity for all things. Anyone thinking it would be fine to cull an elk or wolf recognizes as much, if not as relating to themselves. With some 7 billion humans on this planet, projected to be 9 billion well before the close of this century, we have grossly exceeded our carrying capacity. Anyone viewing any empty mountainside and thinking there is plenty of room, or that technology will solve such a dilemma, does not understand nature or the real concept or carbon footprints. Any city draws from farms and fields far removed from it. A single cow requires several acres of pasture to many hundreds of them depending on how fecund. An individual no different, and the more advanced the lifestyle the greater the demand upon both acreage and all the other resources of this planet. Put another way, if everyone on this planet were to live an average American lifestyle it would require SIX PLANET EARTHS of resources to provide that. We have collectively already exceeded the carrying capacity of this planet, and quickly running it into negative deficit.

The mindset that allows this is one of willful ignorance. It is reflected in the smallest things: someone cutting in line when they should not, someone speeding through neighborhoods or school zones with no care for the inhabitants, someone starting wars or assassinating people with remote control and little concern. It all amounts to the same primeval mindset of me over them that has prevailed in human affairs since day one.

And it has to stop, or we will. Some part of the human population may well survive that to come if not. But none suffering it are likely to like the results. With those managing to survive perhaps wishing they had not. This will be a very different world, and not at all for the better.


1) 'Global warming appears to have slowed lately. That’s no reason to celebrate,' The Washington Post
Global warming appears to have slowed lately. That’s no reason to celebrate.

2) '‘We’re losing all the things that life depends on’: Melting Arctic sea ice has led to ‘mass mortality’ events, study*says,' National Post
‘We

3) 'Arctic Melting May Lead To Expanded Oil Drilling,' WorldWatch Institute
Arctic Melting May Lead To Expanded Oil Drilling | Worldwatch Institute

4) 'Arctic could be ice-free by 2058,' RTCC
Arctic could be ice-free by 2058




ps. As this discussion has somewhat diverged from the topic of the rural Colorado economic status, I'll add that it is still quite topical.

The hard rock mining that began modern Colorado in 1859 was only possible, or with any market, due to gradual human advancements in technology and subsequent lifestyle which saw the eastern seaboard far more developed than anything west of the Mississippi River. And that (New York, DC, Boston, etc.) but some poor hillbilly outpost compared to the highest elevations of Europe from centuries past. Consider that on June 25, 1876, when the talented narcissist George Armstrong Custer met his ignominious end at the hands of Sioux "savages" that the transcontinental railroad across this nation had been completed for only 7 years, but the Palace of Versailles in France had been the exquisitely refined seat of power for 198 years—and that Denver had (as now) the majority of Colorado's population, with an urban populace of about 27,000.

Our current lifestyle in Colorado—and indeed that as many people can even manage to live here in a high semi-arid environment—is entirely due our greater civilization. Were that to cease to exist outside of Colorado, life within this state would suddenly be VERY different.

Like it or not, we are world citizens. Those in Colorado even more so than inhabitants in other more temperate areas of this world. For that we enjoy is in large part artificial—but at last dependent upon the healthy continuance of our natural world.

Last edited by Idunn; 08-16-2013 at 03:07 PM..
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
As far as I'm concerned you are trolling this thread. You keep making posts that belong in the politics forum. You don't have a clue regarding what we are posting about - especially my posts and those of Idunn among other forum members. This is a grievious situation and we feel grief stricken in the face of it. Your posts are the equivalent to those of a immature 13-year old smart assing off in detention hall by contrast.

You know nothing about science or the environment. The ignorance you display is appalling. Go embarass yourself elsewhere. Post in a thread more appropriate to your own agenda or start a new thread to expound about your wisdom in. You are acting in an incredibly rude manner, all things considered.

Now, I have explained to you twice and I won't reply to you in this thread again.
So I'm trolling because I have a contrary opinion to your insistence the poor pika is having to walk higher on the mountain because someone farted too much CO2 in the air? There isn't any basis at all for anything you are saying and not in science either. There hasn't been any warming for 15 years and all the apocalyptic scientists are scratching their head why the earth has not imploded. I know the baby boomers are desperate for the apocalyptic scenarios they have scared the world with because they feel they are THE most enlightened generation of all time(don't trust anyone over 30!), but the world will be here after they are gone. Maybe a little warmer, maybe a little cooler but we will adapt regardless.

There are hot days, cold days, snowy days, clear days. Years and periods where the forests change, animals come and go in population or just go extinct. It's been going on since the beginning of time.

What I'd like to know is when Year Zero was when the pika was in perfect harmory and when the earth had perfectly calm weather.

Perhaps the coyotes and cougars are eating up the pika and they run in fear to the highlands. Who knows and it doesn't really matter. You talk about man interfering in nature, but yet you want man to interfere with nature and control the pika population and where it lives. Make up your mind which it is.
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:20 PM
Status: "Should have been a cowgirl!" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
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Originally Posted by Idunn View Post

Personally, I welcome contrary points of view. There are always two sides to an issue, if the facts often more closely aligned with one side than the other. Censorship is an evil, but the most insidious iteration is that which lies within us, and that we choose not to see.
You are perhaps the better man than I - especially since I'm a chick! Heh.

I made the decision pretty early on that I would not argue science with people who don't "believe" in it. A contrasting opinion in a scientific discussion, backed up by a link or a citation from a reputable source is most welcome to me, as well. But I lack the ability to discuss someone else's apples in the face my oranges, and I don't even try.

The San Juan Mountains mean more to me than I can express. They are a part of me down to my very bones. This morning I was in the San Juans just west of Rico on a Forest Service road along Roaring Fork Creek. That road goes through some of the more magnificent parts of the San Juan mountain Range. I drove that road slowly, my eyes savoring every expansive vista, the red rock, the distinctive formations of the San Juans, the forests of spruce and Doug fir, the marmot who popped his head out from behind a rock to take a quick look at me as I passed by, the meadows filled with the gold of sunflowers.

I was overwhelmed, in awe yet again that I had been given the most splendid gift to call these mountains home. And then I pulled over to the side of the road and I cried. I am not one of those women who cries easily. It has been years since I can remember crying last. I wept for my beautiful mountains - the animals which live there, the forests, the wildflowers - gone. They will all be gone - perhaps in just a few decades, perhaps sooner. All victims of climate change. I see so much that has changed in those mountains just over the course of my lifetime.

I stand in their defense to the last aspen, the last bloom of fireweed, the last pika perched on a rock and I will not stand down. I will not pretend that smartass posts or ones which downplay what is happening to our Colorado mountains are appropriate replies to my own posts in this regard, and I am not afraid to say so. No one on this board or anyone else has the right to make light of my sorrow.
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