Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well, in the Rocky Mountain region, I would overall prefer Salt Lake City over Denver. It is far ahead of Denver in things like mass transit, immediate proximity (literally to the city limit) to mountains, and other factors. It also has a better industrial economic base than does Denver. SLC's main "downer" for me is its severe wintertime air pollution problems and the fact that, like Denver, it is attracting far too many transplants from elsewhere. Though I'm personally not LDS, nor do I agree with some of the tenets of that faith, I don't have a problem living and working with LDS folks--and I've already done that for years.
Another metro area that has a better overall quality of life for my purposes is Omaha, Nebraska. Omaha has a surprising amount of culture for a city much smaller than Denver. Most of the metro area is fairly attractive, with relatively minimal air quality problems. It has a disproportionately large number of Fortune 500 companies, most all quite successful ones, who headquarter there. The place is economically healthy and relatively economically stable, yet maintains and very good affordability index--that is, relatively good local incomes with relatively modest living costs. Omaha's only real significant disadvantage is Nebraska's relatively high effective property tax rates and somewhat high estate taxes. That said, most people I've talked to who live in Nebraska--and that includes relatives of mine who live there--are pretty satisfied with the public services that they get for those taxes.
I have a fairly lengthy list of smaller metro areas--say, the size of Pueblo--outside of Colorado that I would consider superior for my purposes than most of the Front Range cities.
Let's face the truth: the major attraction for Denver and the Front Range is its proximity to the mountains. Take that away, and most Front Range cities are pretty mediocre in most other categories. Yes, the mountains are a major attraction, but--as the saying goes--you can't eat the scenery. When the rest of the economic pictures sours, people will go where they can earn a living. Cheap oil and the ability for people and society to, temporarily over the last few decades, to live far beyond their means made people think that geography didn't matter, anymore. In that environment, Colorado and the Front Range has flourished for the last few decades. But, that party is now ending, and geography DOES matter. In that coming geographical/economic environment, this region will no longer be very competitive in many ways. That is one of those tectonic shifts that will reshuffle the economic deck, and Colorado and the Front Range don't have many "hole" cards to play in that environment. That is why that I continue to work to divest myself of asset holdings in this region--I don't think that they have a very bright future.
Since you did not list the smaller metro's I will look at Omaha and Salt lake City (although I would like to see your list of smaller cities as well). Also, I am not going to bash them as I happen to like both SLC and Omaha (I have been to both cities).
They are nice and the economy is better (unemployment in SLC 5.5% Omaha 4.4%) so that is a plus for them. However knowing those cities like I do I disagree that they have a better standard of living. Now its different and some people like the type of living they offer more then in Denver (just like I prefer Pueblo to live in) but from a practical point of view there are about the same things to do in those cities as you can find in Denver. There are just more to do in Denver because its a larger city. Personally I would live in Denver over SLC and Omaha but I can understand why someone would pick those cities as they are nice but that is just personal preference and in no way means one city has a better quality of life over another. So I guess I just don't see how they have a better standard of living then Denver. One thing I will add is Denver is more tolerant then SLC and Omaha and for me that is a plus and is one reason why I would pick Denver if I were to move from Pueblo (unlikely I know ).
Granted, our family's experience is limited to one area of employment, but I'd like to point out that in the tech industry, many of our customers are found outside the state of Colorado. It doesn't really matter where our offices are located, since much of our business can be done remotely. Colorado and Denver, in particular, remain a tremendous draw for tech workers from all over the U.S.
Here we go again--with the "Denver is the known center of universe" arguments. It's not. Denver and the Front Range metroplex largely exist because of the economic activity that occurs in the hinterlands. Take away the basic production that occurs in the vast Rocky Mountain region--energy and minerals production, agriculture, etc.--and watch how fast Denver whithers. Denver exists because it is a supply, commerce, and transportation center for a huge region of the US--a region endowed with a lot of natural resources. Denver is not a manufacturing center and is, in fact, less so as a percentage of its economic activity than it was decades ago. The other part of the Front Range economy is the BS F.I.R.E. economy that is destined to die an inglorious death at some point in the not-too-distant future. The other HUGE component is government--the Front Range has one of the highest concentrations of federal (including military) employment outside of Washington, DC. Of course, in addition to direct employment, there are legions of private employers on the Front Range eagerly sucking at the government (taxpayer) teat, as well. All of that is destined to severely shrink at some point because, bluntly, a country that has lived so egregiously beyond its means can not continue to support it without risking total economic and political collapse. Very soon, whomever winds up getting elected to Congress and the Presidency are going to have to concern themselves, not about growth, but how to manage long-term contraction in both the public and private sectors. That will be ugly for everybody, but it will be especially painful for places like the Front Range that are far too reliant on what are basically unproductive sectors of the economy. Then watch all of the happy trumpeters now singing about how wonderful the Front Range is today start desperately wishing that they (and their property and capital) were someplace else when the ugly truth about the Front Range's fundamentally unbalanced and unsustainable economy manifests itself.
Here we go again with a statement that give an anthropomorphic identity to the land and its resources; saying that land is self directed and the resources appear magically.
The basic production of of energy, mineral and agricultural cannot exist without first financing from the capital markets that exist in the cities. The products cannot be brought to consuming markets without rail and roads which are financed, designed and built in the cities. The production cannot be continually improved and expanded without the brains and expertise of the people who are trained and live in the cities. The cities bring all this into being. Without Denver, the capability would be there but would not be utilized without the great machine of civilization of intellect and money which is the city.
If you examine and are aware of the history of the region, you will know that the resources of agriculture, minerals and energy became more utilized and valuable when Denver was able to be the impetus for building transportation out of the region to the larger markets.
Yes, a city cannot exist without resources of nature but nature cannot speak for itself, it needs the masses of man, The Cities, to make it productive.
So, take it from me, who knows much because I do not constantly stroke my ego with ridiculous concept and ideas of being native born that somehow gives me a unique prospective and "ccock-a-doodle" myself as the expert of all things in the West and deride the opinions of others. Keep in mind your are now prancing around a bigger barnyard with more intelligent people in the know and the pecking order does not care whether the big rooster was here first.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 10-23-2012 at 02:17 PM..
livecontent wrote:Keep in mind your are now prancing around a bigger barnyard with more intelligent people in the know and the pecking order does not care whether the big rooster was here first.
Poetic justice. I like it! The big rooster cannot fathom that he is just another rooster.....even though he was here first. What a sobering concept that must be to all of the big roosters.
I am from the ca desert and visited Denver(Arvada) last year and the place looks just like Southern Ca without the beach, it's to bad as so cal has so many good things but WAY to many people, citys all blended together, everywhere you go you wait in line, tract homes everywhere, you have to wait in line to get out of town, we have paid to high a price for convience. Denver could be it,s sister city
I am from the ca desert and visited Denver(Arvada) last year and the place looks just like Southern Ca without the beach, it's to bad as so cal has so many good things but WAY to many people, citys all blended together, everywhere you go you wait in line, tract homes everywhere, you have to wait in line to get out of town, we have paid to high a price for convience. Denver could be it,s sister city
bob
Denver is a city, and a major one in this part of the country. What exactly were you expecting to find?
Here we go again with a statement that give an anthropomorphic identity to the land and its resources; saying that land is self directed and the resources appear magically.
The basic production of of energy, mineral and agricultural cannot exist without first financing from the capital markets that exist in the cities. The products cannot be brought to consuming markets without rail and roads which are financed, designed and built in the cities. The production cannot be continually improved and expanded without the brains and expertise of the people who are trained and live in the cities. The cities bring all this into being. Without Denver, the capability would be there but would not be utilized without the great machine of civilization of intellect and money which is the city.
If you examine and are aware of the history of the region, you will know that the resources of agriculture, minerals and energy became more utilized and valuable when Denver was able to be the impetus for building transportation out of the region to the larger markets.
Yes, a city cannot exist without resources of nature but nature cannot speak for itself, it needs the masses of man, The Cities, to make it productive.
So, take it from me, who knows much because I do not constantly stroke my ego with ridiculous concept and ideas of being native born that somehow gives me a unique prospective and "ccock-a-doodle" myself as the expert of all things in the West and deride the opinions of others. Keep in mind your are now prancing around a bigger barnyard with more intelligent people in the know and the pecking order does not care whether the big rooster was here first.
Livecontent
You miss the entire point. I never said that the production of natural resources could happen without the capital and expertise found outside of the rural areas where those resources are located. How dumb do you think I am? I've been involved in the study and application of economic geography for nearly my whole working career. What I did say is that Denver would not be much of an economic center were it not for all of the natural resource production and agriculture in the huge region that surrounds it. The people who actually lived in the Denver metro area and had to make a living there found out that hard reality when the Rocky Mountain energy industry crashed in the 1980's. Denver joke from then: "What do you call a geologist in Denver?" Answer: "Waiter."
As for the "high-tech" argument, I note this: the high-tech and information industry is one that is not extremely location-dependent. That is its blessing and curse. It goes where the industry can find the most talented people at the lowest cost. The Rocky Mountain West attracted a number of those operations in years past because the region offered a pleasant lifestyle at a wage cost that was equal or lower than many other places. That era, too, is waning, as living costs in the region have escalated and more and more of those jobs can be outsourced overseas. The people that I know who work in information and high-tech (some in pretty high-level jobs) are very concerned about the long-term trends in that industry in Colorado--with many of them wondering if they will be able to stay here as the industry shifts.
The thing that I find amusing (and disturbing) is all of the "city-slickers" who opine here about agriculture, or mining, or energy production when they have never spent any appreciable time on a working Colorado farm or ranch, never been underground in a working coal mine, never been on an operating gas or oil drilling rig--in short, never had any direct experience with any of those primary industries that they opine about. I have--and I've also had experience in government, high-tech, and other sectors of this regional economy. I've been fortunate to enjoy several different "careers" in my working life--including a couple where I have been afforded the "inside" view of many Colorado industries. I may be "native" by birth, but more so I'm a native because I've lived just about everything that Colorado has to offer over the years. Part of that is just from good fortune, and much of it from just being here for so long. As the old saying goes, "There are people with 30 years experience, and there are people with 2 years of experience 15 times over." I'm the former.
Omaha is generally underrated when looking at economic and social factors and might get points over Denver with those on the more conservative side of politics and culture. It has a large edge on Denver and almost everywhere else on cost of living. I am sure there is hunting and fishing nearby but I do not see much hiking within 300-500 miles to interest me. If that is not important or very important or still important, then it makes sense to look other places and compare.
Salt Lake City has good access to the mountains and desert. The core city is far less dense than Denver, for better, worse or both. It is a great location but I am very unlikely to live there due to the dominant culture. Maybe I could convince myself to do it with an out of region based income and a doubling or quadrupling of my degree of ignoring the neighbors. But other places seem easier. Among other factors, two negatives are that the air quality is among the worst and the in-city crime level is surprisingly high.
I have live in Nebraska and Colorado, both states have a similar problem. Most of the population is located on the eastern part of the state and the more rural western part get left out of alot of decisions. What is good for Denver (Omaha) is not always what is good for Durango (Scottsbluff). But people choose to live were they are comfortable, weather it be a big city or little town.
You miss the entire point. I never said that the production of natural resources could happen without the capital and expertise found outside of the rural areas where those resources are located. How dumb do you think I am? I've been involved in the study and application of economic geography for nearly my whole working career. What I did say is that Denver would not be much of an economic center were it not for all of the natural resource production and agriculture in the huge region that surrounds it. The people who actually lived in the Denver metro area and had to make a living there found out that hard reality when the Rocky Mountain energy industry crashed in the 1980's. Denver joke from then: "What do you call a geologist in Denver?" Answer: "Waiter."
As for the "high-tech" argument, I note this: the high-tech and information industry is one that is not extremely location-dependent. That is its blessing and curse. It goes where the industry can find the most talented people at the lowest cost. The Rocky Mountain West attracted a number of those operations in years past because the region offered a pleasant lifestyle at a wage cost that was equal or lower than many other places. That era, too, is waning, as living costs in the region have escalated and more and more of those jobs can be outsourced overseas. The people that I know who work in information and high-tech (some in pretty high-level jobs) are very concerned about the long-term trends in that industry in Colorado--with many of them wondering if they will be able to stay here as the industry shifts.
The thing that I find amusing (and disturbing) is all of the "city-slickers" who opine here about agriculture, or mining, or energy production when they have never spent any appreciable time on a working Colorado farm or ranch, never been underground in a working coal mine, never been on an operating gas or oil drilling rig--in short, never had any direct experience with any of those primary industries that they opine about. I have--and I've also had experience in government, high-tech, and other sectors of this regional economy. I've been fortunate to enjoy several different "careers" in my working life--including a couple where I have been afforded the "inside" view of many Colorado industries. I may be "native" by birth, but more so I'm a native because I've lived just about everything that Colorado has to offer over the years. Part of that is just from good fortune, and much of it from just being here for so long. As the old saying goes, "There are people with 30 years experience, and there are people with 2 years of experience 15 times over." I'm the former.
In my life, I run across people like you who have the bragging ego, who have done everything; know everybody of importance, as you have illustrated in your many posts on this forum. If that is the case you would not being taking the time, or have the time, for these questionable thrills on an anonymous forum. Every State have the sad, loud, hostile native braggart who knows everything and derides others. I usually turn away with a snicker and chuckle, knowing that they are deserving of my sympathy as a real life characterization of Walter Mitty and Baron Munchausen.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 10-24-2012 at 09:49 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
).
