U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-07-2012, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,144 posts, read 5,452,573 times
Reputation: 4020

Advertisements

A board can adopt a rule about any issue they deem necessary.
False. The board must have authority to restrict or regulate the specific subject of the rule. This authority usually comes from the law or from the CC&Rs. A general provision in the CC&Rs granting the right to adopt rules does not give a board the unfettered authority to restrict rights of individual owners, especially as to units or lots. On the other hand, a board will usually have authority to adopt reasonable rules to govern use of the common property, to govern the use of individually owned property to protect the common property, and to protect the members’ use and enjoyment of their own property and the common property from interference caused by use of other individually owned lots or units.
An association should have a qualified attorney review a proposed rule before it is adopted, and have the attorney review existing rules periodically to ensure the rules are authorized under the governing documents and the law and that they don’t open the association to discrimination claims or present other problems.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-07-2012, 07:57 AM
 
2,818 posts, read 3,332,595 times
Reputation: 3015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
[LEFT]According to the Community Associations Institute:[/LEFT]
  • An estimated 50 million Americans live in association-governed communities. Some 1.25 million people serve on community association boards, with another 300,000-plus serving as committee members.
  • About 6,000 to 8,000 new community associations are formed every year. This includes condominiums, cooperatives and planned communities. It is estimated that more than four in five housing starts during the past 5-8 years have been built as part of an association-governed community.
  • The estimated real estate value of the homes in all community associations is about $2 trillion, approximately 15 percent of the value of all U.S. residential real estate.
  • Estimated annual operating revenue for U.S. community associations is $30 to $35 billion.
And this is why, IC, you will NEVER stop HOA's from proliferating. It's why people should learn how to live within them, and make them work for the greater good of everyone.

Of course, your welcome to show statistically how many HOA's are disbanded each year and we will can see how well your course of action is working.
I think you have gotten a bit off-topic Wardendresden. What is your real fear?

Your HOA-industry leanings show a little but your information is dated and omits more relevant statistics. I'm well aware of CAI and the true nature of that trade group. The HOA attorney in our case was a CAI member. The management company was a CAI member. They couldn't tell the truth in or out of court. Seems to be a common trait among trade group members.

If you want to provide some statistics, show how many people were foreclosed upon, how many lawsuits are ginned up by CAI attorneys and management companies, CAI's despotic "public policies", how much money is embezzled annually by HOA vendors, the hundreds of billions of equity lost by homeowners that were unfortunate enough to own HOA-burdened housing, ever-increasing assessments, perpetual liens that can never be paid off, etc. HOA housing isn't "more affordable". It's over-priced. HOA-burdened property probably lost more "value" than any other kind of property during the last 5 years. Look at the Florida, California, Arizona, and Nevada real estate markets. If you can't enjoy living in your home because of the HOA and the HOA is also the root cause of the loss of value too ... HOA-burdened property will continue to grow in undesirability.

Regarding the bogus sanctimonious "greater good" claim: It sure sounds like a lot of the homeowners in the OP's case aren't better off (mostly those who aren't board members of course). Is that the "greater good"? What about respecting the rights of the individuals? "Greater good" is a euphemism for "the controlling interest of the board" not the involuntary members. The OP's situation is yet another example of that.

HOAs and condo corporations are already failing - all over the country. The HOA trade groups don't like to advertise those numbers. "Disbanding" is not necessarily the same thing as failing. Some would consider disbanding to be a sign of success - at least for the homeowners. The trade groups don't like to disclose those numbers either. HOA-burdened subdivisions can continue on regardless of whether the HOA corporation is "disbanded" or "failed". Not so much for condos. Condominium is a statutory form of ownership.

Of course condos are going to proliferate - at least in the short term. Stacked housing like "connected" condos represent the highest tax dollar per horizontal square foot that local government could get. Local governments - at least cities - are pushing to infill with condos wherever possible. The proliferation is a function of current local government policies and does not mean that condos are successful or in demand.

What the HOA vendors fear is having a little light shown on their activities. There is no reason to "work within" the HOA system unless homeowners want more of the same ole same ole. Readers might benefit from a little research done by others about the CAI trade group.

Since search engines have proliferated and access to information has improved, it has been a lot more difficult for the trade group to assert and maintain false claims like "isolated instances", "HOAs preserve value", "the majority of homeowners love HOAs", "HOAs are miniature democracies", etc.
Check out Chapter 7:
theHOAprimer

Last edited by IC_deLight; 12-07-2012 at 08:07 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2012, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,144 posts, read 5,452,573 times
Reputation: 4020
Quote:
Originally Posted by IC_deLight View Post
I think you have gotten a bit off-topic Wardendresden. What is your real fear?

"Your HOA-industry leanings show a little but your information is dated and omits more relevant statistics. I'm well aware of CAI and the true nature of that trade group. The HOA attorney in our case was a CAI member. The management company was a CAI member. They couldn't tell the truth in or out of court. Seems to be a common trait among trade group members."

Of course, the "common trait among trade groups" is unfounded. You have provided no data or source of data.

If you want to provide some statistics, show how many people were foreclosed upon, how many lawsuits are ginned up by CAI attorneys and management companies, CAI's despotic "public policies",

WHY DON'T YOU show the statistics! Right now it's purely your opinion. You have provided no data.

"What the HOA vendors fear is having a little light shown on their activities. There is no reason to "work within" the HOA system unless homeowners want more of the same ole same ole."

Again, this is YOUR opinion. No data provided to show lawsuits are more effective than internal change. And I dont even need data to tell folks it's a hell of a lot more expensive to sue---and far more problematic with regard to outcome. That was the advice of our attorney when we decided to sue the builder over his numerous construction failures.

"Since search engines have proliferated and access to information has improved, it has been a lot more difficult for the trade group to assert and maintain false claims like "isolated instances", "HOAs preserve value", "the majority of homeowners love HOAs", "HOAs are miniature democracies", etc.
Check out Chapter 7:"
theHOAprimer


I agree research is good to look at ALL angles to improve an HOA. You appear to be looking only at those that support your misguided opinion. Your insistence that there is only one way is going to hurt a lot of people. In addition, people need to read CASE LAW in their states to see how courts have ruled in cases between HOA's and homeowners. CASE LAW is established in Courts of Appeal and higher.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2012, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,144 posts, read 5,452,573 times
Reputation: 4020
Default From RealEstateAttorneys.com

Homeowner’s Associations are an excellent way to make sure that your property values stay high, and that your neighborhood stays in good condition. Homeowner’s associations, or HOA’s, make sure that everyone who moves into a neighborhood signs a legal agreement to follow certain bylaws and standards of behavior. However, if you do not follow the rules, you can find yourself open to lawsuits by the Homeowner’s Association. There are a number of options for defending yourself from an HOA lawsuit, and a number of reasons why you could be facing the lawsuit in the first place.
Understanding an HOA Lawsuit

Homeowner’s Associations typically file lawsuits because of a number of factors.
  • Nonpayment of HOA dues or other fees is a common reason, as are failures to follow the rules agreed upon when you purchased the home and signed the agreement with the HOA.
  • Typically, this can include offenses such as parking illegally, displaying flags, decorations, or other outdoor items in violation of the HOA agreement, or failure to maintain your property to the standards of the HOA agreement which you signed.
  • In some cases, changing things like exterior colors or door styles or even a mailbox can cause a lawsuit from a HOA if you do not listen to their warnings and correct the changes in accordance with their regulations.
If you are facing a lawsuit from the HOA, you have a number of options.
  • One option is to get involved in the board and appeal the regulation that you are in violation of, or run for the board yourself and have the bylaws changed so that you are not in violation of them anymore.
  • You may also dispute the lawsuit on the grounds that the HOA is not carrying out its duties in a fair and arbitrary manner, which is a prerequisite of any Homeowner’s Association.
  • If you feel you are being unduly harassed or not treated fairly, you can appeal the lawsuit on these grounds.
In general, the only sure-fire way to avoid a Homeowner’s Association lawsuit is to obey the original agreement that you signed when you purchased the property, and attempt to change the organization from within by removing board members or being elected to the board yourself. In order to do this, you will need to remain in good standing with the Homeowner’s Association.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2012, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,144 posts, read 5,452,573 times
Reputation: 4020
Default The BIGGEST failing of HOA's

By far the largest and most troubling failure of HOA's is inadequate reserves for future large maintenace costs--new roofs for townhome or condo communities, or repaving streets, or handling water run-off as topographical changes take place.

It is very typical for Builders who generally establish the initial Covenants, Conditions, & Restrictions to underfund the reserve by charging too little for dues---of course, in order to sell their units to potential buyers. And they can do this because they typically control the Board of Directors until a certain number of units are sold or a certain time period has elapsed.

Even if your Board is still controlled by the Builder, ask in a meeting if a reserve study has been made to determine the potential future cost of repair/maintenance. Insist that your question be made a part of the minutes of the meeting. You are putting the Builder on notice that you have an awareness of the importance of a properly funded reserve, and that the Builder has a joint responsibility to make sure that reserve is adequate. Once a unit is completed, depending on the State you are in, a Builder will at some point be responsible for paying HOA fees on those unsold units remaining in his possession. Check your state statues.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2012, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,144 posts, read 5,452,573 times
Reputation: 4020
Default From The New Jersey Cooperator

"-------
Then there are the internal fights, one that pits neighbor against neighbor, or resident against board.
"These usually arise out of a perceived right to services," explains Robert Shanahan, of Kilcommons Shanahan in Annandale. "HOA residents can have a landlord-tenant mentality, and they don't pay their dues if something goes wrong. The board moves to recover the fees, and is hit with a countersuit." For example, a resident might have a broken toilet in his apartment. He insists that the board have the toilet repaired, although the association's bylaws may explicitly state that he is responsible for the toilet. In protest, he decides to stop paying his dues.

These kinds of cases rarely end well. Residents, of course, are forbidden by the bylaws to withhold maintenance fees, so these cases almost always work against them, and they wind up covering the board's legal costs out-of-pocket.

Finally, there are suits that can be brought against the individual board members. Because no sane person would expose herself to such liability for an exacting volunteer position, boards take out Directors & Officers (D&O) insurance policies to cover their members should the need arise. Under the so-called fidelity and honesty provisions of D&O policies, board members are not liable for honest mistakes.

"If they are acting according to the advice of their attorneys and other professionals," Kaspar says, "that's OK. If they act arbitrarily and don't follow advice, that's when they get into trouble."
If laws are broken, however, all bets are off. "Fraud is fraud," Kaspar says, "and a board member who commits fraud would be convicted criminally and sued civilly."
Improving the Odds

If board members are supposed to listen to their professionals, what do professionals advise, to lessen the chance of litigation? Given that many of the lawsuits involve neighbors, most pros stress the importance of communication.

"Have a fair system where you can hear people," advises Shanahan. "Show you're willing to listen to their grievances. And try to work it out."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2012, 12:07 PM
 
2,818 posts, read 3,332,595 times
Reputation: 3015
I think the observations about CAI made by the author of HOA Primer referenced above is a more accurate representation of reality. The folks Wardendresden quotes are industry hacks who are members of the CAI trade group. They do not profit by "lessening litigation". They thrive on creating chaos and dissension in HOA-burdened property. The news articles are also woefully ignorant. For example, in the last one they can't seem to tell the difference between "apartments" and "condos".

The first article is full of nothing but the typical myths regarding HOA-burdened property. Consider for example:
"Homeowner’s Associations are an excellent way to make sure that your property values stay high, and that your neighborhood stays in good condition."

That's more false propaganda from the HOA industry hacks. HOAs do not "make sure that your property values stay high" - they enable the HOA vendors to get a lot of value for themselves out of your property. Although CAI and its members have made such claims about HOAs "preserving property values" for decades, they have no empirical evidence to support their claims - at least to the extent they are implying that the homeowners are the beneficiaries. That's because the vendors' claims are not supported by reality. This phrase is known as a "Leninism" - if you repeat a lie often enough people might actually believe it. Certainly it is an unsubstantiated statement and not supported by reality.

How about: "Homeowner’s associations, or HOA’s, make sure that everyone who moves into a neighborhood signs a legal agreement to follow certain bylaws and standards of behavior. "
More false propaganda. How about providing a copy of one of those "legal agreements" that "everyone who moves into a neighborhood signs". Might be nice to see what state these "real estate attorneys" on "realestateattorneys.com" are actually licensed in, if any.

Of course there is the really ridiculous "follow the rules no matter what they say" mantra in the same article:
"the only sure-fire way to avoid a Homeowner’s Association lawsuit is to obey the original agreement that you signed when you purchased the property, and attempt to change the organization from within by removing board members or being elected to the board yourself. In order to do this, you will need to remain in good standing with the Homeowner’s Association."

This statement is so riddled with absurdity only a fool would try repeating it as if it carried any meaning. Again feel free to provide a copy of the "original agreement that you signed when you purchased the property". There won't be any. Restrictive covenants are servitudes on the land. Your signature will not be on any restrictive covenants and neither will your neighbors'. There is no "sure fire" way to avoid being the target of an HOA lawsuit. The vendors profit from lawsuits and they are constantly working to stir them up. Note also the suggestion of democracy and changing the organization from the inside. Ha, ha. Except that the article points out you have no right to run or vote unless you are in "good standing" per the article. Yeah, real democracy. Who determines whether your vote will count, the board members you seek to remove/recall/replace? I believe Stalin is recognized for the quote along the lines of "it matters not who the people vote for they always vote for us". Thanks for that example, Wardendresden. If it's not too late you might be able to go back and edit out that part of the quote.

Here's a facially invalid quote from one of the articles cited above: "Under the so-called fidelity and honesty provisions of D&O policies, board members are not liable for honest mistakes". The author has confused liability to the victim with coverage under the insurance policy. The board members' liability to their victims is not dictated by the terms of the insurance carrier. The insurance only determines whether the board member can expect the insurance carrier to pay the victim. In other words, the victim still gets paid.

As I mentioned previously, I hold board members accountable for their conduct when they are wearing the veil of the HOA corporation. Whether they or their insurance carrier pays is mostly between them and the insurance carrier. I don't go away just because the board members can't count on the insurance "coverage" that the management company sold them. Moreover, until board members find out that they are personally liable how do you expect a judgment to deter bad conduct?

As long as the HOA corporation is there, the same ole same ole will continue. The vendors are terrified that homeowners would disband or terminate the HOA corporations. Look at Wardendresden's obsessive reaction to simple observations. You're proving my point, Wardendresden. The HOA system was not set up for the benefit of the homeowners at all. What Wardendresden is recommending is no different than suggesting to slaves that if they are unhappy they should continue to support the institution of slavery while engaging in discussions with their slave masters as to how the master might better treat the slaves.

Wardendresden and I will obviously not agree and we are each entitled to our own opinions.

I for one have no qualms about going after the HOA corporation, its board, its attorney, and its management company. Some homeowners will also hopefully be emboldened when they realize that the HOAs are not the invulnerable/unbreakable institutions that the industry hacks proclaim them to be. I am not alone at refusing to submit to "rule by HOA corporation" and I do not subscribe to the claim that homeowners give up all constitutional rights by involuntary membership in an HOA corporation or that homeowners are limited to operating within "board rules" or "the CC&Rs" when dealing with these entities.

Last edited by IC_deLight; 12-07-2012 at 12:19 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2012, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,144 posts, read 5,452,573 times
Reputation: 4020
Default IC still doesn't get it

No one gives up "constitutional" rights or rights under state law when they belong to an HOA. But when they belong to an HOA they are subject to CONTRACTURAL LAW as that is what is involved when one signs the "documents" at closing which IC doesnt understand are, amongst others, the CC&Rs making an agreement between the new owner and the HOA on certain conditions and restrictions. If someone doesn't want to abide by them, they don't have to sign them--of course, they won't own property in the community either.

IC is the foolish beyond description to think D&O insurance won't provide MILLIONS of dollars of protection, assuming a Board is wise enough to purchase the same, for claims against the Board. ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, if a Board member acts in an ILLEGAL fashion will he or she not be covered against mistakes in judgment.

IC wants you to make spurious and frequent claims against your HOA to assuage his own desire to make HOA's pay for whatever problem he has suffered. As an individual Board member, I never had the slightest concern about lawsuits from homeowners. As a Board, we documented everything we did, made every attempt to solve disputes without resorting to attorneys, and kept the entire community of roughly 192 people informed. It frequently took me into households to talk to people face to face, listen to their concerns, and try to find a middle ground for folks to work things out.

In the case of an individual such as IC, it is not unusual to see an HOA file a countersuit (see my previous post on a case in Colorado within the past five years). IC is itching for a fight, instigating fights, begging for fights---that way is fraught with financial danger. And good HOA lawyers don't beg for a fight, they advise Boards to avoid them.

HOA's can and do make mistakes. Once in awhile there is a "nazi" on board who is a power freak. Your CC&R's provide you with methods to deal with such individuals.

If IC is still in an HOA, trust me, he is following the rules mandated by the CC&Rs. And he agreed to those rules during the purchase of his property, he is NOT an "involuntary" member. He may have been foolish and not read the CC&Rs he signed. But a Board cannot enforce part of the rules against some homeowners and leave one unmolested because he might sue.

Watch out for unreasonable individuals like IC, they will lead you into disaster.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2012, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,144 posts, read 5,452,573 times
Reputation: 4020
Default From the Denver Post, April, 2011

[LEFT] [CENTER]Print Email Font Resize[/CENTER]
HOA registration law

By John Rebchookdenverpost.com
Posted: 04/21/2011 01:00:00 AM MDT




In case you didn't think HOAs are a big deal, think again. Some 7,652 HOAs in Colorado have registered with the state of Colorado, a requirement of a law passed by legislators last year that went into effect in 2011
The HOAs registered with the Department of Regulatory Agencies, or DORA, as required by House Bill 1278, represent 817,675 units. Observers believe that means well over one million people live in HOA communities.
Most HOAs registered
Terry Jerrett, president-elect of the Rocky Mountain chapter of the Community Associations Institute, an advocacy, educational and lobbying group for the HOA industry, said he thinks those registered represent the lion's share of the HOAs in the state. "I think the HOAs that have lawyers represent them or on the boards, or have HOA property managers, were advised to register," he said. "Some of the smaller boards may not have even heard of the registration requirement yet."
Until now, he said, people only guessed how many HOAs there were in Colorado.
The industry and consumers now have a better handle on the number of HOAs in Colorado thanks to House Bill, which created the HOA Information and Resource Office and for the first time required Home Owner Associations in Colorado to register with the Department of Regulatory Agencies.
The HOA Information Office does not have regulatory or investigative power and will not contact HOA or management companies. However, it tracks inquiries and complaints and report annually to the Direction of the Division of Real Estate. The law goes on to say that HOA Information Office also will as a "clearinghouse for information concerning the basic rights and duties of homeowners, declarants, and HOA's under the Colorado Common Interest Ownership Act . Complaints will be logged and the issues will be tracked and reported in an annual report."
Depending on the nature of the complaint, the HOA Information Officer may contact complainants to discuss their rights and responsibilities under CCIOA or to gather additional information. The HOA Information Officer strives to call complainants back within one week of receipt of a complaint. However,. complaints are answered in the order received and depending on the nature of the issue, according to DORA.
So far, there have been 160 complaints. Major issues that homeowners in HOA communities are complaining about so far, fall into four categories: Record issues- particularly financial records
HOA not maintaining common areas
Mistreatment by board/management companies
HOAs not allowing homeowners to provide input.
So far, most of the complaints have been by phone, although DORA expects more to arrive through e-mail and the new database, as consumers learn about the system. The HOA Information Office prefers that complainants use the online complaint submission form at: DORA Division of Real Estate. Complaints can also be submitted by emailing HOA.registration@dora.state.co.us.





[/LEFT]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-07-2012, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,144 posts, read 5,452,573 times
Reputation: 4020
Default From a pro-homeowner HOA forum in Colorado

"HOA law already clearly, effectively, and fairly addresses HOA governance and homeowner's rights. To make it work for homeowners, it needs to be modified to include enforcement and penalty processes other than our Court system. The Courts are expensive, (un)timely, and complicated making this means of enforcement basically ineffective and inaccessible to 99% of homeowners. It's like the poll tax which only allowed those who could pay to vote enjoy the benefits of voting rights. In the HOA legal and legislative world it is a totally pay-to-play environment if you want to pursue your rights. An out-of-court binding mediation process for most HOA disputes would allow for effective, accessible, affordable, and fair enforcement of HOA law. Why is this so difficult? Our homeowner advocacy group, Colorado HOA Forum, www.coloradohoaforum.com, applauds the legislative effort on HOA reform but is disappointed with the results.

One bright spot was the creation of the Colorado HOA Information Office and Resource Center. This Office is an administrative entity with the primary purpose of recording and reporting HOA homeowner complaints. While it has no mediation or enforcement authority, it did provide valuable insight into the types and high number of homeowner complaints against HOA Boards and property management companies."


Lawsuits are generally ineffective for most homeowners. This HOA forum group has a realistic proposal for dealing with disputes between homeowners and the HOAs to which they belong.

Cause, IC, you ain't NEVER gonna get rid of HOAs. So the rest of us need to learn how to live in them, work with them, and correct them in a fashion that doesn't break anyone's bank. You'll just have to sulk.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:11 PM.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top