A good study on newcomers vs. old-line residents (Denver, Lakewood: environment, upkeep)

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by MorningGlory

Sometimes I wonder why the worldwide population explosion never gets blamed for any of these "sprawl" problems. Where on earth are people supposed to go? Mars?

There does seem to be an opinon by some that Colorado should not have to absorb any of the national population growth. The world-wide population "explosion" is slowing down; birth rates in Japan and much of Europe are below replacement levels. Even in the third world, birth rates are going down, though still high.

[EscapeCalifornia]

For everyone opposed to single family homes, why don't you go live in a 400 sqft box on the 41st floor of some building in NYC?

Some people seem to forget that housing style is driven by demand. A lot of people (like myself) don't want to live in a super high density area. I want a house. No one above, no one below.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by EscapeCalifornia

For everyone opposed to single family homes, why don't you go live in a 400 sqft box on the 41st floor of some building in NYC?

Some people seem to forget that housing style is driven by demand. A lot of people (like myself) don't want to live in a super high density area. I want a house. No one above, no one below.

I'm with you on those thoughts. Though I love Manhattan for many reasons, and wish I could live there, I'm with you about wanting to avoid the downside of high density living. BTDT in a place called Crystal City, VA, next to National Airport. Lived right over the metro subway, could walk to just about anything, wife walked to work via underground walkways and shopping areas. Main problem was the neighbors: noisy partiers, loud music, rat-bustards who stole our Sunday paper from our 5th floor door, wicked smells from someone's kitchen, people that couldn't put their trash in the trash chute, frequent fire alarms when the wind blew, etc.

Many studies have shown that when you crowd rats into a cage they get aggressive and territorial. I think the same is true of people, just try and find any kindness on the crowded roads of DC metro area, NYC, Miami, LA or Atlanta - hah. Our ancestors, from cavemen on down, had lots of space around them. The industrial revolution made crowded cities possible and the auto made it possible to get out of them and back to sanity, with room for a veggie garden and safe play area for kids. I think we feel best when we have some room. My 1/5 acre lot is all I need, enough to insulate me from any jerks that may be around, though our neighbors are great - I guess they want the same things.

s/Mike

[steveco.]

I think that a variety of living options (best of both worlds) are awsome especially now that people are becoming more and more aware of the climate change and the need to do something about it. While owning your own home and some land is the american dream, it jsut seems that that dream is destroying the enviroment.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by MorningGlory

Sometimes I wonder why the worldwide population explosion never gets blamed for any of these "sprawl" problems. Where on earth are people supposed to go? Mars? I grew up here and have seen everything that was my childhood replaced by malls and subdivisions. I think the fact that the US still has so much land left to build on is a relief, just look at Japan. At least our predecessors had the forethought to institute the National Parks system, National Forests, BLM, etc. Not suggesting that sprawl is good, it isnt. I think planning walkable cities would benefit everyone, maybe even encourage multi-family housing with centrally located gardens and parks. Maybe people would actually get to know their neighbors...

You are so right. I have become a strong advocate for what many call the "New Urbanism." I truly think if Americans really examined their total lifestyle in the "American Dream" of single-family residences sprawled out over the countryside, they might find it less than ideal. Most people are just so busy trying to pay for it that they don't have time to think about its costs to their health, family structure, environment, or long-term security.

My personal opinion is that resource scarcity (pariticularly oil and water) will eventually lay waste to the suburban lifestyle as we now know it--it's just a question of how much personal and national wealth gets poured down that rathole before that happens. A lot, I am afraid.

Written far better than I could, James Howard Kunstler had this to say about it in his October 29th blog ( Cluster**** Nation by Jim Kunstler ). While I consider him pretty radical in some respects, Kunstler's assessment of this nation's myopic mentality about the challenges it faces is pretty darned lucid in my opinion.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by steveco.

I think that a variety of living options (best of both worlds) are awsome especially now that people are becoming more and more aware of the climate change and the need to do something about it. While owning your own home and some land is the american dream, it jsut seems that that dream is destroying the enviroment.

I don't think owning your own is destroying the environment. I really do not want to enrich some landlord. We do grow some of our own food on our little plot of land as well. I am not hep on "New Urbanism"; I had enough of the "Old Urbanism" when I was a kid living right up the street from a steel mill. Big semis would lumber up and down our residential street all day long. In the little suburban city where I live, we are close to grocery stores, the library, etc as it is. I kind of like a bit of separation from the business area.

[steveco.]

So do you like the miles and miles of sprawl that circle denver and show little signs of stopping? Many of the problems that we see with the climate has to do with this mentality and way of life. All one has to do is look at the city during a "red" day to see what the results are of our "car culture" addiction. Yes there are some industry to blame for some of that but for the most part its the ribbon of cars sitting on 25 from 3pm to 7pm The whole point of "new urbanism" is to create a place where you don't have to get into you're car, commute 20 minutes to work, drive back, drive to the market and to the mall. Urban doesn't mean you have to live within spitting distance of an industrial park.. Many of Denvers oldest neighborhoods and streets are just as busy as some suburban streets.

[EscapeCalifornia]

Originally Posted by steveco.

So do you like the miles and miles of sprawl that circle denver and show little signs of stopping? Many of the problems that we see with the climate has to do with this mentality and way of life. All one has to do is look at the city during a "red" day to see what the results are of our "car culture" addiction. Yes there are some industry to blame for some of that but for the most part its the ribbon of cars sitting on 25 from 3pm to 7pm The whole point of "new urbanism" is to create a place where you don't have to get into you're car, commute 20 minutes to work, drive back, drive to the market and to the mall. Urban doesn't mean you have to live within spitting distance of an industrial park.. Many of Denvers oldest neighborhoods and streets are just as busy as some suburban streets.

You act like a house in the suburbs automatically means driving 30 miles each way to work every day. Lots of people don't drive that far, take trains, or work from home. If commuting by car ever became prohibitive (either in terms of cost or time) people will find other ways to keep their suburban lifestyle and still make a living. I just can't see large numbers of people giving up their single family homes and moving into condos closer to the city. High density living might be fine when you're 21 but not when you want a family.

[Katiana]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with home ownership. It is not a "mentality" problem. I agree with escapecalifornia. I drive 4 1/2 miles to work; DH drives about 6. That is fewer miles than when we lived in Denver and rented a place where we couldn't grow our own blades of grass, let alone tomatoes to can, beans to freeze, etc. I can stop at a grocery store, Sam's Club, the post office, Kohl's, Walgreen's, the bank, all on the way to/from work. DH walks to a Wendy's for lunch many days. I eat lunch in the hospital cafeteria, so I don't add any miles at all during the day.

[jazzlover]

We actually had "new urbanism" in Colorado (and just about everywhere else in the U.S.) a century ago. As an example, Denver had many neighborhoods (whose remnants are still there, but blighted by high traffic streets) with nice single family homes, with neigborhood schools, shopping, and parks--all within walking distance of the typical home. For those who needed to make more involved shopping trips to downtown, or those who worked farther than walking distance from their homes, there were extensive trolley and interurban (now called "light rail") systems--all privately funded at that time, by the way--throughout the city and out to towns outlying the city. If you can find it at the library (now long out of print), read a book titled "Mile High Trolleys" to get a feel of what Denver was like before the automobile and its attendant sprawl showed up. If we would just start embracing that type of model again, we might have a chance of stopping ridiculous sprawl, saving the single family home as a housing option, and regaining some national energy security in this country. If we don't, the middle class will soon be unable to afford single family homes, automobiles will become an unaffordable transportations option, and our country will be totally at the mercy of foriegn oil "dictators" and terrorists--many of which have a often-professed desire to destroy the U.S. and its people.