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Old 07-17-2013, 03:00 PM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,697 posts, read 4,333,575 times
Reputation: 10278

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
I understand your frustration and anger because I live in the southwestern corner of Upstate NY, and we have the same issues with the domination of our state government by Downstate NY (NYC, Long Island, a few counties just north of NYC). I recognize that simply dividing up the state isn't the answer, though, because in an "independent" Upstate, there would still be a huge political divide between the people who live in the bigger metros (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany) and the people who live outside them. In some counties, like Erie, Albany, and Saratoga, the divide between the urbanized areas and the rural areas is surprisingly deep, too.
I'm more frustrated than I am angry, but I'm getting there. Late night fun with "NorCo" aside, I don't think splintering off Colorado into two or three new states is the answer either.

Quote:
So, should "Upstate" then be divided yet again, into the more urbanized North Upstate and the more rural South Upstate? But wait, the Adirdondaks are different from both, so should they become their own state of North Country? What about the counties that are sharply divided between urban and rural areas? Should they be divided, too? Carried out to absurdity, it would result in dozens of cities and/or counties being their own little states, but where do you draw the line? Where ever you draw it, somebody's going to complain.
I agree. However, we need to find a solution to the problem that lies in some middle ground between seccesion and "shut up and do what we tell you to." So far the latter stance has not been working out too well for either Colorado or the nation.

Quote:
I'm sure you can think of how a similar scenario could happen in Colorado.
Post number 3 in this thread was made by jazzlover:

"The dislike of many rural Coloradans for the politics of the Front Range has been a festering problem for several decades now, but it is intensifying as the nearly intractable voting majority in the metro Front Range becomes a classic case of the "tyranny of the majority" leveled against the rural minority of Coloradans. Colorado's way-too-easy-to-amend State Constitution has made that tryanny more pernicious. It also doesn't help that many of the people transplanting to Colorado hold political views that are blatantly anti-rural. These are some of the main reasions that that this long-time rural Coloradan left Colorado. I still feel great empathy for the many long-time rural Coloradans who now feel like unwanted strangers in their own state. Unfortunately, this forum is a mirror of the problem. The number of rural Colorado posters are constantly swamped by the Front Range posters, some of them "know-it-alls" who have no respect for rural Colorado residents." (emphasis my own)

Colorado desperately needs such eloquent and thoughtful rural residents like jazzlover. Instead, he has been driven out of the state, and he is far from alone. Others have left as well. In my case, I have been pushed quite literally to the edge and find myself in a remote rural part of the state on the border of Utah and New Mexico. I call my home the "Lost Corners" for more reasons than one. Thoughtful rural Coloradans (and Southerners, etc.) with the means to find a better situation just leave. The rural people who remain foment Sagebrush Rebellions and turn on Rush Limbaugh - who polarizes them even more.

Quote:
Sadly, it's the lot of people who live in less populated areas to have less voice in their state governments simply because of their lack of numbers. This mattered less when the populations of most states were less diverse (or where large numbers of individuals were disenfranchised) because there was more consensus. It also mattered less when representation in the state legislatures was weighted, sometimes quite heavily, in favor of rural areas. It also mattered less when smaller percentages of states' populations were concentrated in a few relatively small areas.
Rural American children have the same civics classes that urban ones do. Rural folk are members of the same participatory democracy as people who reside in the big city are. We share the same American heritage and history. The Front Range can't dismiss 15% of the state's population and not expect some blow back as a result. You can't just inform us to forget about it - they were only joking in those civics classes. On the national level, disenfranchise of rural America has been a major factor in creating the tea party movement. Special interests have taken advantage of this rural discontent, and the result has been our current do-nothing Congress.

The system of America's government is broken and we ALL need to come together to fix it.

Meanwhile, Colorado's Western Slope and other rural regions brood over their wrongs.
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Old 07-17-2013, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Ubique
4,141 posts, read 3,142,475 times
Reputation: 2627
Our country was unified under a foreign threat. Foreign threats have always brought about a stronger central government. Some people would attribute the concentration of power in the last 10-12 years to terrorism, which is another foreign threat.

Throw in a bad economy. Throw in that our country is moving left (which means more centralized govt); secession cries, I am afraid, will get stronger.

Under present circumstances, no state will be broken up, but if things change, who knows.

Interestingly, Vermont which has been notorious for a wanting to get out, VT has been relatively silent lately on this.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:00 AM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,697 posts, read 4,333,575 times
Reputation: 10278
^^^

I looked in on the CD Politics forum last night. That place is awful. It should be scrapped and sent off to some cyber junkyard. The people who post there are so mean spirited and filled with ill will that a few of them actually scared me. I imagined them IRL walking around and looking at others with hatred in their eyes. Who needs it?

Secession has become the latest fad. Everybody who is anybody wants to secede. Apparently, many feel that it would be easier to start a new country/state than it it would be to just open up a rational dialogue with one another. Bottom line, rural Colorado wants to secede over a UTILITY bill?

Oh, man.

At the end of the day, there's nothing that I as an individual with one small (worthless) rural vote can do about anything. I just want to go deep into the San Juan Mountains and never come back. And that's more than enough out of me.
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Old 07-18-2013, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,079 posts, read 10,275,420 times
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I remember a similar situation to the Weld County secession movement. No, wait...the situation I was thinking of was a little bit different. It was a 6 old laying on the floor kicking and screaming because he didn't get his way.
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX
654 posts, read 1,609,730 times
Reputation: 862
The movement inches forward. It will be on the ballot this fall in some counties.

"Weld County commissioner Sean Conway predicted secession will pass in his county on a 60-40 vote and, quoting Indian spiritual leader Mahatma Gandhi, who was instrumental in overthrowing British rule, warned others not to be dismissive of the movement

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win,'" said Conway said."

51st state question will be on Weld, Phillips ballots this fall - The Denver Post
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:20 AM
 
811 posts, read 1,224,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marat View Post
The movement inches forward. It will be on the ballot this fall in some counties.

"Weld County commissioner Sean Conway predicted secession will pass in his county on a 60-40 vote and, quoting Indian spiritual leader Mahatma Gandhi, who was instrumental in overthrowing British rule, warned others not to be dismissive of the movement

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win,'" said Conway said."

51st state question will be on Weld, Phillips ballots this fall - The Denver Post
Yeah, its just like India's struggle for independence against an oppressive British Empire, except that in this case the hard-right xenophobe anti-everything rural politicians are cast in the role of the former British overlords with their monacles on one eye crying into their martinis about how much better things were back in the "good-old days" when they ran everything. Change really sucks when you didn't think anything was wrong in the first place. Ask the plantation owners of Georgia and Mississippi circa 1870. They got "oppressed" too, just like these poor Weld County folks.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:56 AM
 
20,840 posts, read 39,059,222 times
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I've yet to hear any reports that secession "fans" have done a full economic analysis of how much state aid they now get from COLO taxpayers that THEY would have to pay FULLY out of their own pockets as a separate state. If they ever get that set of numbers, they'll shut up and slink off into evening darkness before the lynch mob of their neighbors come a'calling.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,768 posts, read 4,620,009 times
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As I have said before I doubt the area is a net taker from the state, from the feds I would think they would be, but with oil and gas booming I would bet they end up giving up considerably more then they get.

Just off severance tax the state received in the neighborhood of 200 million in revenue last year, and reportedly Weld County accounts for over 95% of that.

http://www.co.weld.co.us/assets/b85C...AD0684906A.pdf

According to this link Weld county received less then $42 million from the state in 2012.
http://www.weldgov.com/assets/1a6429A560C0bA66Bd0b.pdf
Add in the estimated $26 million that UNC and NJC received from the state,

Meaning they are already down about $122 million in net tax revenue going out. That is without adding in the state income tax, the licensing and permits paid to the state, state sales taxes, and every other tax that is added on there, without doing a ton of research I would say it was a pretty safe bet that they end up being net givers for the state. The rest of the area is also experiencing some of the oil boom as well, and if they are not losing money, I would bet it is damn close to breaking even.

Federally they are more then likely net takers, as all the federal programs for farming.

People in some of the cities do not seem to realize just how much oil & gas they have in those areas that want to succeed, or they do not realize what that can do for a state. Colorado is actually seeing large increases in revenue, despite relatively strict drilling regulations, yet wells are still going in. The problem for the state is that right now Colorado's largest industry is mineral extraction, with a significant portion of that happening in the area we are discussing. People want to make comments such as this
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I remember a similar situation to the Weld County secession movement. No, wait...the situation I was thinking of was a little bit different. It was a 6 old laying on the floor kicking and screaming because he didn't get his way.
without realizing that many of the state institutions and services are being paid for by revenue generated out of these areas. Fact is Colorado needs Weld county and the oil producing areas of the state more then Weld county and those areas need Colorado.

The biggest difference between Northern Colorado/ Denver and places like southern Illinois/Chicago or New York/NYC, or even Northern/ southern California is where the revenue comes from. Like it or not the bigger cities in those areas generate the revenue for the rest of the state, Even in California I would be most of the revenue for the state comes from southern California and most of those revenues from the LA metro area. Colorado's 2 biggest sources of revenue from within the state are Minerals, and Tourism, neither one really has anything to do with the Denver metro area, other than tourists flying into DIA flying to head to the mountains. Given that you would think the state legislature would pay a little more attention to those areas, as opposed to running roughshod over them and basically ignoring their needs and requests.

Texas was built with oil and gas, Wyoming has not had any revenue problems through this last downturn, despite 0 personal state income tax, I have heard of no financial problems that the state of Oklahoma has had over the last decade. The problem is going to be when the oil field goes bust, but at this time, money is the last issue these counties need to worry about. The problems they are going to run into is actually getting it through all the steps to actually become their own state. At first I thought the state would wake up and start paying attention, but right now people are just laughing, they really should do research on where the state of Colorado's economy and tax revenue comes from, and find a way to appease those areas before this goes to far.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:32 AM
 
20,840 posts, read 39,059,222 times
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What about the other 8-10 counties who want in on the deal? Net takers? Probably. How much state money for education goes to those counties? Roads? State police? Courts? Prisons? Health Dept? On and on it goes.

There's no definitive set of numbers on the table. The state government will hold its numbers close to the vest until time to crush these dudes.

Wyoming's severance tax is a good deal higher than COLO's. Gonna raise it to pay the bills?

The secession thing is foolish, when all the numbers are in people we see just how much so.
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Old 08-20-2013, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,768 posts, read 4,620,009 times
Reputation: 4893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
What about the other 8-10 counties who want in on the deal? Net takers? Probably. How much state money for education goes to those counties? Roads? State police? Courts? Prisons? Health Dept? On and on it goes.

There's no definitive set of numbers on the table. The state government will hold its numbers close to the vest until time to crush these dudes.

Wyoming's severance tax is a good deal higher than COLO's. Gonna raise it to pay the bills?

The secession thing is foolish, when all the numbers are in people we see just how much so.
Once again do some research if you are so sure of yourself. Colorado, eastern Utah, and southern Wyoming reportedly hold more oil then all of Opec.

One of the largest fields in the world was discovered a few years ago called the Niobrara field in Cheyenne, Kiowa, Bent, Powers, Lincoln, Logan, Washington, and Weld counties. Do those counties ring a bell?

You are severely underrating the value of that discovery to a state and overall area. here is an article stating Colorado could be gaining $4 billion in tax revenue per year just from that field alone.
Oil Find in Colorado Could Reap Billions

Considering that is almost half of Colorado's entire revenue last year, I would not be so sure that they are net takers.

Now to add to that, go research the wattenburg field, Keota field, and Denver-Julesburg basin, more oilfields mostly in Weld county that have been producing oil for years, and are both still being drilled on right now.

So tell me again why you think that an area of about 15% of the population of Colorado, cannot build their own state with about 40-45% of the revenue that the state of Colorado receives every year right now? Also please remember that is just off of tax revenue from the oil. Add in sales & income taxes, as well as fees and permits, and get back to me on how that whole area is just a bunch of takers.
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