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Old 11-05-2013, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Ubique
4,141 posts, read 3,147,474 times
Reputation: 2632

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Jazzlover resorted to Godwin's Law by invoking a comparison to Hitler, and got properly called out for it. Doing so is a form of logical fallacy and is best not used as it's a bush league technique in debate.
I certainly agree with you on the Goodwin Law. But I most certainly disagree with you that taking someone to the woodshed is a proper response for resorting to Goodwin law.
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Old 11-05-2013, 07:51 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,802,953 times
Reputation: 9132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Jazzlover resorted to Godwin's Law by invoking a comparison to Hitler, and got properly called out for it. Doing so is a form of logical fallacy and is best not used as it's a bush league technique in debate.
The analogy may be a bit extreme, but the point remains: Not all change is positive and people who are negatively affected by it and powerless (due to the Tyranny of the Majority, in this case) to stop it certainly have justification to be plenty upset about it--and the current "secessionist" movement (though it will be fruitless) demonstrates that frustration.

As far as "bush league" techniques in debate, having no idea of the rationale behind an opposing point of view (thus being unable to intelligently debate it) is about as bush league as one can get--and Mike and many of his metropolitan counterparts are clueless about the challenges facing rural Coloradans, as well as the crappy treatment those rural Coloradans get from the metropolitan-dominated political process.
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:12 PM
 
20,858 posts, read 39,095,620 times
Reputation: 19120
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
The analogy may be a bit extreme, ...
Thank you. It is extreme and I ask that none of us go to that extreme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
... but the point remains: Not all change is positive ...
Even a kid knows that; further, no one said that all the changes were positive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
.... Mike and many of his metropolitan counterparts are clueless about the challenges facing rural Coloradans, as well as the crappy treatment those rural Coloradans get from the metropolitan-dominated political process.
The secession is mostly a TEA party thing, and they don't give a damn about rural Coloradans and their problems, or anyone else's problems. The whole thing is spite work of the anti-gay crowd, gun lobby and TEA activists who just want to make trouble for a Democratic governor and statehouse, i.e., it has nothing to do with the "problems" or "treatment" of rural Coloradans and everything to do with out of state money stirring the pot.
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,255 posts, read 10,317,442 times
Reputation: 20225
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
The analogy may be a bit extreme, but the point remains: Not all change is positive and people who are negatively affected by it and powerless (due to the Tyranny of the Majority, in this case) to stop it certainly have justification to be plenty upset about it--and the current "secessionist" movement (though it will be fruitless) demonstrates that frustration.

As far as "bush league" techniques in debate, having no idea of the rationale behind an opposing point of view (thus being unable to intelligently debate it) is about as bush league as one can get--and Mike and many of his metropolitan counterparts are clueless about the challenges facing rural Coloradans, as well as the crappy treatment those rural Coloradans get from the metropolitan-dominated political process.
The "Front Rangers" are no more clueless or tyrannical now than the rural Coloradans were in the past.

If you had used a reasonable example of not all change is positive, rather than what is -- perhaps -- the most extreme change in the modern history of the world -- I would have agreed with you. But, one man - one vote is the American way. To say anything different is to say the people of Weld County (etc.) should have one man five votes. What kind of American principle is that? Sometimes politics doesn't favor your side...or my side. The people of Weld County (etc.) are not being denied any rights. They have every right today that I have.
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:26 PM
 
20,858 posts, read 39,095,620 times
Reputation: 19120
Early returns indicate that the people of Weld County do NOT want to secede, 58% to 42%, so far. Elbert County is 74% against it.
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Ubique
4,141 posts, read 3,147,474 times
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Our country is built on the premise of Consensus, not Majoritarian rule.

Every time majority wields its power, without the consensus of the minority, you'll have problems. Weld will not secede tomorrow, but given enough grievances, left undealt with, you betcha that things will get a lot more interesting.
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:38 PM
Status: "Summer!" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,920 posts, read 102,388,879 times
Reputation: 32974
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry10 View Post
Our country is built on the premise of Consensus, not Majoritarian rule.

Every time majority wields its power, without the consensus of the minority, you'll have problems. Weld will not secede tomorrow, but given enough grievances, left undealt with, you betcha that things will get a lot more interesting.
Please tell me, my friend from NYC, what is your knowledge base regarding Weld County, CO and your interest in this issue.
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:38 PM
 
20,858 posts, read 39,095,620 times
Reputation: 19120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry10 View Post
Our country is built on the premise of Consensus, not Majoritarian rule.

Every time majority wields its power, without the consensus of the minority, you'll have problems. Weld will not secede tomorrow, but given enough grievances, left undealt with, you betcha that things will get a lot more interesting.
I doubt that we ever hear of this again. Then again, maybe it's the latest gimmick in the bag of burglar tools used by the Koch Bros, Tea Party, et al, to wreak havoc on the nation. Then again, maybe California will break up into 5 or 6 liberal states and pack the Senate with DEM senators. Then again....
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Old 11-05-2013, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,255 posts, read 10,317,442 times
Reputation: 20225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry10 View Post
I certainly agree with you on the Goodwin Law. But I most certainly disagree with you that taking someone to the woodshed is a proper response for resorting to Goodwin law.
I think you know that was not a literal statement. I recently ran for our HOA board. The election was a tie. After the runoff I told people, "I got whopped". No one whopped me. It's an old cliche.
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:48 AM
 
16,438 posts, read 19,101,274 times
Reputation: 9518
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
I doubt that we ever hear of this again. Then again, maybe it's the latest gimmick in the bag of burglar tools used by the Koch Bros, Tea Party, et al, to wreak havoc on the nation. ...
Is that any different from Bloomberg and company meddling in Colorado politics? I am opposed to any outsiders trying to impose their own ideological slant on the state. If they want to change things, come here and live to earn a vote.
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