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Old 07-12-2013, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Parker, CO
1,081 posts, read 2,734,117 times
Reputation: 1764

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescreen73 View Post
It'll never happen. They have to create a statewide ballot initiative. If that passes then the Feds have to OK it.

There's another plan out there to redistrict the legislature (most likely the senate) so that each county has its own state senator. To me that's only slightly less ridiculous than the crackpot secession idea. There's absolutely no reason why Mineral County, pop. 708 should have as much sway as Denver County, pop. 619,968. That would lead to tyranny of the minority because all the sparsely-populated rural counties with more livestock than people would form a voting bloc that would overrule everyone else. The legislature wouldn't get anything done.
I agree with this. It seems to me that this is more of a protest or publicity stunt than something that is actually likely to happen.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:28 PM
 
811 posts, read 1,225,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by downtownnola View Post
It seems to me that this is more of a protest or publicity stunt than something that is actually likely to happen.
In other (but related) news, our cranky neighbor recently shouted and shook his disgruntled fist at some local kids who wanted to retrieve their ball that had rolled a few feet onto his weedy unkempt yard. Gotta love cranky disgruntled neighbors who aren't quite all there. Every neighborhood has a few.
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:05 AM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,703 posts, read 4,343,073 times
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Haven't read through the entire thread, but I can tell you that we on the Western Slope feel pretty estranged from the Front Range ourselves. It's one reason why I call this part of Colorado the "Lost Corners." The West Slope is like an entirely different state with different outlooks, different priorities, different everything. I've started telling my friends that we need to go occupy the Uncomphagre Plateau and create the new country of "Uncomphagria."

No one on Colorado's Front Range would miss the territory of the new country since they don't even know the Uncomphagre Plateau exists, and Washington sure as hell doesn't. Our stance will be one of hostile neutrality toward both DC and Denver. Urban city slickers need not apply for citizenship. We're tired of sending our water to the swimming pools of Phoenix in the middle of one of the worst droughts this region has seen. We're tired of Bills out of Denver that place undo hardship on us rural folk like SB 252.

We're hard hit out here and our population is nothing compared to that of the Front Range. Rural electric co-ops already charge people a small fortune as it is. I can see putting SB 252 in effect for major population areas where it might have some impact, but we are not going to reap vast environmental rewards due to it out here. It just means more people getting their electricity shut off when they can't pay the astronomical electric bills.

And I am a progressive. It just shows how alienated EVERYONE on the Western Slope has become.

ETA Well, almost everyone. The people in the chic resort towns like Aspen and Telluride and now even Durango probably don't even notice their electric bills. And they're not sitting around watching their crops dying thanks to the drought or wondering how to feed livestock given the astronomical cost of hay, either. But the rest of us are pretty upset over these things and much more.

Last edited by Colorado Rambler; 07-13-2013 at 01:24 AM..
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Old 07-13-2013, 09:23 AM
 
811 posts, read 1,225,153 times
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CR, your concerns are obviously real and heartfelt, but are they substantially different from concerns/complaints rural areas in EVERY state have against their population centers? Does rural Oregon not gripe against the population blob surrounding Portland for all sorts of various and sundry reasons? Rural Washington against Seattle? Upstate NY against NYC? Rural CA vs all the big coastal cities (and north vs south for that matter). Really it just never ends, the complaints the minority has against the majority. How many states do you think we'd end up with if every disgruntled rural area got to declare themselves "independent?" I'm thinking we'd end up with between 300 and 1,500 US states, which might get a bit unwieldy, yes?
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:35 AM
 
20,858 posts, read 39,095,620 times
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Colo Rambler's (any relation to Nash Rambler?) angst is pretty common around the nation. A few examples...

- In my home state of MD, the ocean-front playgrounds of Ocean City, MD seem a world apart from the old coal mining mountain areas of western MD that abut WV and PA. Worlds apart. Nothing in common. Or so it seems. One piece of trivia from grade school is that western MD is closer to Canada than to Ocean City. But the same U.S. Route 50 traverses each of those areas....hmmm

- How would someone in San Diego or Orange County, CA relate to the concerns of those up in Yreka, CA near the OR border? Does anyone think they care about each other?

- Does anyone think for a minute that Philadelphia and Pittsburgh relate to each other, except by a common last name (PA). Gets even worse comparing Philadelphia to Erie, PA.

- Then there's TX, with over 700 miles and several worlds btw Texarkana and El Paso.

So really, it's nothing to worry about or fall into a funk over. Tax-wise, I'd venture that rural areas get more back than they pay in to the system.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:35 PM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,703 posts, read 4,343,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smdensbcs View Post
CR, your concerns are obviously real and heartfelt, but are they substantially different from concerns/complaints rural areas in EVERY state have against their population centers? Does rural Oregon not gripe against the population blob surrounding Portland for all sorts of various and sundry reasons? Rural Washington against Seattle? Upstate NY against NYC? Rural CA vs all the big coastal cities (and north vs south for that matter). Really it just never ends, the complaints the minority has against the majority. How many states do you think we'd end up with if every disgruntled rural area got to declare themselves "independent?" I'm thinking we'd end up with between 300 and 1,500 US states, which might get a bit unwieldy, yes?
Oh, sure. There's always been that city mouse vs. country mouse thing. And it exists everywhere in the US if not the world. This is the Colorado Forum, so I gave my thoughts on the situation here rather than in say, Texas where the entire state wants to leave the Union.

I was joking (sort of) about creating the nation of Uncomphagria. Secession is not the answer, no matter how much members of the coon hound set whine about it over on the politics forum. However, I don't think telling people who live in rural areas to get over it already is the answer either. Just saying.

I would like to see a government more along the lines of a confederation, rather than a republic. The republic paradigm falls short when it comes to government by the PEOPLE. Just like in "When Horton hears a Who," we're people our here, too, but we're governed by a legislative body that makes laws that work well for Denver - not Cortez or Dove Creek or Paradox, etc. People from the Front Range think places like Durango and Cortez aren't even in the US, never mind Colorado. I think they think we're in Mexico if they think of us at all.

And isn't this the kind of thing that fueled the American Revolution in the first place? Taxation without representation is tyranny and all that? With all due modesty, I come from people who fought in that Revolution as members of the rural colony of Virginia, then followed Daniel Boone west to live in the mountains of rural Eastern Kentucky. We went on to fight for State's Rights in the War of Northern Aggression (Slavery had little to nothing to do with the region's participation in the Civil War. We were too poor to have slaves, and many of us didn't believe in slavery, anyhow).

I think the US could learn a great deal by studying the example of Switzerland (Confederation Helvetica). The Swiss have had a government by the people for more than 700 years. They have not fallen apart over petty regional sqabbles - this despite the fact that there are FOUR major population groups in one small country - French, German, Italian, and Romansh. You'd think this would be a recipe for disaster, but Switzerland has stood firm as a country through invasion attempts by Austria in the 1400's to backing off an invasion by Hitler in WWII.

The Swiss government is a local government, rather than a centralized one. The country is divided up into Cantons (States). The people who reside in the cities and towns of each Canton make governing decisions for themselves through town hall type meetings and a popular vote. The same on the level of the Cantons. French speaking Geneva does not make government decisions for tiny Fluhli in the German speaking Canton of Luzern. Even the city of Luzern doesn't tell the farmers of Fluhli where to graze their cows or whether they should pay for a new tax on electricity. If the people of Fluhli vote against it, that's that. And they don't need to threaten to secede from the Confedration over the issue.

Why not give the people who live in rural Colorado (and the rest of the US) that same control over their government and actually carry out the will of the people in Dove Creek rather than the will of the people in Denver - most of whom are city dwellers from out of state who don't have a clue about irrigation rights or the price of hay.

Last edited by Colorado Rambler; 07-13-2013 at 12:52 PM.. Reason: Stupid spelling errors
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:51 PM
 
1,316 posts, read 1,179,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
WY, ND, AK, and Tex could afford it... (but it will never happen)

I know, very tough for some to imagine that RED states have wealth, and the INTELLIGENT leadership to fund great schools, community services, healthcare...
bbbb but. everytime I'm at the Starbucks cafes in Denver, I hear alot of talk about how stupid most of the people that live in the rural parts of the U.S. are...That they all mostly live in trailer parks and practice incest and bestiality and many are even religious dancing snake handlers. Look, many of these Denver coffee drinkers are University grads so they must be right about what they say....No?
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:46 PM
 
811 posts, read 1,225,153 times
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Hmm, I can't say I know why we have a US form of government here in the US rather than a Swiss form. I'm perfectly willing to consider the pros/cons of a switch to a Swiss-style of govt, but bear in mind I'm just one dude, and on any given day in my household of four persons my opinion as to what occurs in our home is fourth on the pecking order, and if you add in the cat it might be fifth.

I suspect Mike from back east is correct that rural areas and states in general receive quite a bit more in tax money than they pay into the system, but I've been informed I have to get the milk from the car and so don't have time to go looking for links to support that proposition. They certainly tend to complain louder than cities with problems complain, or perhaps its that they have a better delivery system to broadcast complaints, because I certainly hear them far more often, on a per capita basis, at least it seems so.

One other point. While it may be true that city-folk don't particularly think about or care about rural folk, methinks the corrollary is also true, that rural folk don't give a ***'s-*** about people living in cities, the problems they face, etc. Each group cares about their own problems and is ignorant and/or hostile to the problems of the other. One difference I do see is that while city folk typically either don't think about rural populations at all or in a mythologized "back to the land" sort of longing that is unattainable, rural folk just plain hate people in cities, with a depth and passion I am continually amazed by. When people despise you and your kids and your neighbors and don't even make an effort to hide their dislike and contempt, it can be a real challenge to sympathize with their "plight."
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Old 07-13-2013, 09:05 PM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,703 posts, read 4,343,073 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smdensbcs View Post
Hmm, I can't say I know why we have a US form of government here in the US rather than a Swiss form. I'm perfectly willing to consider the pros/cons of a switch to a Swiss-style of govt, but bear in mind I'm just one dude, and on any given day in my household of four persons my opinion as to what occurs in our home is fourth on the pecking order, and if you add in the cat it might be fifth.
Thank you for being willing to consider turning into Switzerland.
It was an idea I threw out to facilitate a discussion. There is more than one way to have a democracy, and people often don't realize that. I have TWO cats who have their cat nip packed and are ready to become mousers on a farm up in the Alps.

Quote:
I suspect Mike from back east is correct that rural areas and states in general receive quite a bit more in tax money than they pay into the system, but I've been informed I have to get the milk from the car and so don't have time to go looking for links to support that proposition.
I would be curious to know what the ratio of taxes to benefits is for rural regions myself. I need to go ambush a few tourists from Denver but if I come across anything, I'll let you know.

Quote:
They certainly tend to complain louder than cities with problems complain, or perhaps its that they have a better delivery system to broadcast complaints, because I certainly hear them far more often, on a per capita basis, at least it seems so.
Not sure what you mean by a "better delivery system to broadcast complaints." If you are thinking of the tea party rhetoric which clogs the airwaves, I might remind you that not everyone in rural areas is a tea party member although we may have some issues we share in common. But you don't hear Rush Limbaugh talk about the drought in southwestern Colorado. I can't think of any delivery system that allows rural America to voice its concerns in a non partisen manner - no red or blue needed.

Quote:
One other point. While it may be true that city-folk don't particularly think about or care about rural folk, methinks the corrollary is also true, that rural folk don't give a ***'s-*** about people living in cities, the problems they face, etc. Each group cares about their own problems and is ignorant and/or hostile to the problems of the other.
No argument there. It's hard enough for most people to deal with the problems that come knocking on the door of their own home, never mind the troubles in the house on the other side of town. I try to stay away from the CD politics forum for just this reason. Yeah, I can waste my time posting my own snarky comments there and add to the general hostility, but what good does that do anyone? This country is already polorized enough, and people do love to talk about their differences rather than the things we all have in common.

Quote:
One difference I do see is that while city folk typically either don't think about rural populations at all or in a mythologized "back to the land" sort of longing that is unattainable, rural folk just plain hate people in cities, with a depth and passion I am continually amazed by. When people despise you and your kids and your neighbors and don't even make an effort to hide their dislike and contempt, it can be a real challenge to sympathize with their "plight."
Again, you seem to be describing the tea party - especially tea party members in the rural parts of the South. I am in a rather unique position as a Coloradan who has lived in this state since I was 8 years old - meaning I've been around here for a day or two - and I've lived all over Colorado and watched the influx of newcomers (mostly from urban areas) with amazement. However, the blood of Eastern Kentucky still runs in my veins as I mentioned in an earlier post.

On the Politics forum I get to call rural Southerners the "coon hound set" because on some level I'm still a member of that set myself. I feel a deep affection for my Southern compatriots and I wish they'd turn off Rush Limbaugh and sit down with me on the front porch back home, drink ice tea so sweet that it hurts your teeth, and talk about the things that REALLY matter in this country. And hatred for our own fellow Americans is not one of those things. Hatred is not vanquished by hatred. Hatred is vanquished by understanding and love. I think most people understand this, even though they may think they don't in the heat of the moment.

When it comes to the rural Western Slope of Colorado, we have our fanatics here just like everywhere else. But most folks on the West Slope don't HATE someone just because they're from Denver or whatever. If that were true, I'd never have been able to feel that I'd come home the first time I ventured away from the Urban Front Range and saw the beauty of the San Juan Mountains.

"Come, let us sit down and reason together."
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Old 07-13-2013, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
3,111 posts, read 4,889,513 times
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First of all, the reason why the United States is not a confederation, is because that particular government DID NOT WORK.

You seem to forget that from 1781 until 1788, the United States government was governed under the Articles of Confederation. The Articles were abandoned in favor of the the Constitution largely because the states often quarreled among themselves, refused to financially support the national government, the articles required unanimous votes to amend and 9/13 votes to pass laws and more. Some states started making treaties with foreign countries, printed their own money, and had their own military When Shay's Rebellion broke out in 1786, the national government was not able to raise an army from the states, and a private army was formed to take care of the situation.

Confederations, like many other things, work better with smaller areas and populations. A confederation in the US would effectively break it up.
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