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Old 07-16-2013, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Ubique
4,141 posts, read 3,145,859 times
Reputation: 2632

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
I am not confusing demographics with democracy. Democracy means everyone's vote is equal, not that some people's votes are worth more than others. Why should the 500,000 people living in county A have 1 vote and the 5,000 people living in county B also have 1 vote? That's not democratic. The democratic way to deal with this imbalance is to either give county A 100 votes and keep county B at 1 or something else along those lines.
That's why Weld County wants to secede. If smaller areas do not get represented, they have no interest to stay, that is majority's tyranny. Weld County wouldn't have joined in the first place if it knew it would be taxed, but not represented. Who wants that?
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Old 07-16-2013, 09:41 PM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,699 posts, read 4,339,330 times
Reputation: 10289
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanek9freak View Post
I totally agree. I think the entire western slope and NE Colorado should be a new state, and if by some miracle they actually managed to pull it off, I'd pack up my stuff and move there the following week. NorCo. I like the sound of that.
Sounds interesting. We could get the Front Range in our cross fire if we did that. NE Norco could shut down their petroleum supply and Western Norco could shut off their water. Yeah, I like it!
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Old 07-16-2013, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Aurora, CO
6,530 posts, read 10,212,895 times
Reputation: 9766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry10 View Post
That's why Weld County wants to secede. If smaller areas do not get represented, they have no interest to stay, that is majority's tyranny. Weld County wouldn't have joined in the first place if it knew it would be taxed, but not represented. Who wants that?
They are represented. Everyone in Weld County (and the entire state for that matter) has 1 state representative and 1 state senator who represent them in the state legislature. You may not agree with the way the legislature votes, but it's nothing like the taxation without representation that the American colonists faced while under British rule.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:20 AM
 
9,830 posts, read 19,539,435 times
Reputation: 7604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
Sounds interesting. We could get the Front Range in our cross fire if we did that. NE Norco could shut down their petroleum supply and Western Norco could shut off their water. Yeah, I like it!
I like it too. These people have declared open season on rural people and its time to fight back and secede. The fair trade mocca latte enviromental lawyer urban dwellers who have been terrorizing rural Colorado will get their comeuppance when water, food, energy and all the profits from agriculture, mining, oil and gas and tourism get the tap turned off. Norco will be a booming place to be.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:02 AM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,699 posts, read 4,339,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
I like it too. These people have declared open season on rural people and its time to fight back and secede. The fair trade mocca latte enviromental lawyer urban dwellers who have been terrorizing rural Colorado will get their comeuppance when water, food, energy and all the profits from agriculture, mining, oil and gas and tourism get the tap turned off. Norco will be a booming place to be.
It really is something, isn't it? I don't know what's up with the Front Range these days. There's no reasoning with them. I think too many urban types from LA and the East Coast have moved there, and at some point the sheer numbers of urban dwellers from everywhere but here tipped Denver and the rest into some sort of urban psychosis.

That's my theory, anyhow.

So, where should we meet to draw up Norco's Articles of Confederation?
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Old 07-17-2013, 03:44 AM
 
Location: Ubique
4,141 posts, read 3,145,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescreen73 View Post
They are represented. Everyone in Weld County (and the entire state for that matter) has 1 state representative and 1 state senator who represent them in the state legislature. You may not agree with the way the legislature votes, but it's nothing like the taxation without representation that the American colonists faced while under British rule.
Two points. First, Weld Co stayed because it agreed and liked the constitution, and their small representation would insure them a voice under that constitution. Right, wrong or indifferent, now they think, that majority has changed that constitutional structure unilaterally, and they don't like it. So they want out.

Second, secession voices are loudest during bad economic times. When times are good, everyone is happy.

Bottom line, unions last as long as the status quo is kept. When it Status-quo changes, union becomes a forced union, and divorce is usually the end result.
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:52 AM
 
Location: Inactive Account
1,508 posts, read 2,472,424 times
Reputation: 965
Even if the Colorado legislature agreed to this split, Congress would not admit a new sparesly populated state that would likely elect two conservative senators, without also allowing in another state with two liberal senators. It's be a compromise perhaps by letting Puerto Rico in, or splitting California.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,841 posts, read 7,302,672 times
Reputation: 13779
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
You and other posters keep bringing up this straw man argument and attributing it to me. I am at a loss as how to be anymore clear than this (getting a bit exasperated here):

I am not advocating that a minority of rural voters should govern a majority of urban voters.

I am advocating that rural voters govern their own rural areas. The Front Range should not be dictating policy for the Western Slope or Weld County, etc. ESPECIALLY in matters that have no impact what-so-ever in places like Colorado Springs or Denver.

Why is this so hard for everyone to understand? Im not going to repeat myself 40 zillion times 4 times is more than enough.

Im beginning to suspect that no one has a good reply opposing the concept of government by rural Colorado for rural Colorado. Since this idea is simple common sense, it takes the fun out of the debate.

I await further instructions from the Front Range (Mike FBE) before replying at any greater length than that.
I understand your frustration and anger because I live in the southwestern corner of Upstate NY, and we have the same issues with the domination of our state government by Downstate NY (NYC, Long Island, a few counties just north of NYC). I recognize that simply dividing up the state isn't the answer, though, because in an "independent" Upstate, there would still be a huge political divide between the people who live in the bigger metros (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany) and the people who live outside them. In some counties, like Erie, Albany, and Saratoga, the divide between the urbanized areas and the rural areas is surprisingly deep, too.

So, should "Upstate" then be divided yet again, into the more urbanized North Upstate and the more rural South Upstate? But wait, the Adirdondaks are different from both, so should they become their own state of North Country? What about the counties that are sharply divided between urban and rural areas? Should they be divided, too? Carried out to absurdity, it would result in dozens of cities and/or counties being their own little states, but where do you draw the line? Where ever you draw it, somebody's going to complain.

I'm sure you can think of how a similar scenario could happen in Colorado.

Sadly, it's the lot of people who live in less populated areas to have less voice in their state governments simply because of their lack of numbers. This mattered less when the populations of most states were less diverse (or where large numbers of individuals were disenfranchised) because there was more consensus. It also mattered less when representation in the state legislatures was weighted, sometimes quite heavily, in favor of rural areas. It also mattered less when smaller percentages of states' populations were concentrated in a few relatively small areas.
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Old 07-17-2013, 09:09 AM
 
20,853 posts, read 39,085,412 times
Reputation: 19115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
... Sadly, it's the lot of people who live in less populated areas to have less voice in their state governments simply because of their lack of numbers. This mattered less when the populations of most states were less diverse (or where large numbers of individuals were disenfranchised) because there was more consensus. It also mattered less when representation in the state legislatures was weighted, sometimes quite heavily, in favor of rural areas. It also mattered less when smaller percentages of states' populations were concentrated in a few relatively small areas.
I'd venture to say it's the same in just about every state. Chopping up states into smaller ones to appease some angry malcontents is totally unsound. If there are identifiable 'grievances' then get some lawyers and take the matter to court for a remedy - which is the American way, i.e., the rule of law.
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:26 PM
 
811 posts, read 1,224,788 times
Reputation: 2111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
So, should "Upstate" then be divided yet again, into the more urbanized North Upstate and the more rural South Upstate? But wait, the Adirdondaks are different from both, so should they become their own state of North Country? What about the counties that are sharply divided between urban and rural areas? Should they be divided, too? Carried out to absurdity, it would result in dozens of cities and/or counties being their own little states, but where do you draw the line? Where ever you draw it, somebody's going to complain.
Hence my observation several pages back that we'd have 300 - 1,500 states if every disgruntled petulant sub-region could pout and declare themselves their own state, like a teenager living off their parents dime and declaring themselves "independent" from the hated and despised oppressors who pay their bills and clean up their messes. Criminy. I'm sure the disgruntled rural "don't tread on me" types who continually take more than they give (ongoing wealth transfer from urban to rural) would LOVE welfare-state socialist Switzerland. Steal from 'em and insult 'em while you do it. Classy.
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