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Old 07-30-2013, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,969 posts, read 1,979,508 times
Reputation: 1724

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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
You would do well to recognize that how you see it is not the exclusive one and only right way to see it. It's real to you, irrelevant to the rest of the world.

And no, it's not just about "gun rights" but Constitutional rights. While the gun legislation is what led to the recalls, this thread is about the recalls themselves, which by the State of Colorado's laws, is the right of the citizens to pursue.



I support the Constitution of the United States as well as the State of Colorado, hence I support the recall elections.

I understand why you would try to put my reasons for supporting the recalls into a box because it fits your narrative better. The problem with this is you are not even making an effort to understand your ideological opponent. This is very common amongst anti-gunners, but it is also intellectually dishonest. If you choose to continue in ignorance on the reasons law abiding gun owners oppose the new laws as well as support the recall elections, then your "contributions" to this discussion are essentially worthless. I politely ask you to actually consider a point of view besides your own or kindly withdraw so those with something intelligent to say may continue the dialogue on an intellectual level deserving of the topic.
Amazing that you would believe that my viewpoint is not shared by others. You might want to do some research on the NRA, Republican Party, Kochs, income inequality, ALEC, etc. As far as the anti-violence legislation, I (and judging from polls, most Americans) see nothing wrong with background checks and magazine size limits. We will see how this plays out. And your opinion of my intelligence and supposed 'ignorance' are irrelevant. But thanks for confirming to me that you cannot discuss this topic in a logical manner without insult.

 
Old 07-30-2013, 08:03 PM
Status: "Beach time!" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg/Virginia Beach, VA
10,645 posts, read 11,048,679 times
Reputation: 13872
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. Where in the Constitution does it say high capacity magazines are a right?

2. The government is involved when you sell your house. When you sell your car. Why is weaponry any different.

3. Oh, so Governor Hickenlooper knows what he's doing when he agrees with you, but not when he disagrees with you.
1: Second Amendment. If you think the framers of the Constitution, the same guys who devised a government the likes of which mankind had never before seen, could not foresee the evolution of the firearm... High capacity magazines are a function of modern firearms. The fact that they did not exist in the days the Constitution does not change the text.

2: The differences is government has made itself the clearing house on private transfers of firearms. This is what I object.

3: I don't think Hick knows what he's doing period. But when the governor who signed these laws into law questions how effective they'll be, it underscores the futility of the laws as they relate to reducing gun violence and increasing public safety (as they are certified by their own public safety and interest clause to do). It also gives gun owners legitimate reason to question the purpose of these laws. If they don't accomplish the purpose for which they are intended, what is the point? If the only affect is infringement of law abiding citizens, then the concerns of law abiding gun owners are well founded.
 
Old 07-30-2013, 08:09 PM
Status: "Beach time!" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg/Virginia Beach, VA
10,645 posts, read 11,048,679 times
Reputation: 13872
Quote:
Originally Posted by artisan4 View Post
Amazing that you would believe that my viewpoint is not shared by others. You might want to do some research on the NRA, Republican Party, Kochs, income inequality, ALEC, etc. As far as the anti-violence legislation, I (and judging from polls, most Americans) see nothing wrong with background checks and magazine size limits. We will see how this plays out. And your opinion of my intelligence and supposed 'ignorance' are irrelevant. But thanks for confirming to me that you cannot discuss this topic in a logical manner without insult.
Equally amazing is you try to dismiss law abiding gun owners as being pro-wholesale slaughter of children (or words to that effect). If you don't actually believe it and say it anyway, you're dishonest. If you actually believe it, you're willfully ignorant of who is the law abiding gun owner. It's not an insult, it's a fact.
 
Old 07-31-2013, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Western, Colorado
1,598 posts, read 2,752,228 times
Reputation: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by artisan4 View Post
Amazing that you would believe that my viewpoint is not shared by others. You might want to do some research on the NRA, Republican Party, Kochs, income inequality, ALEC, etc. As far as the anti-violence legislation, I (and judging from polls, most Americans) see nothing wrong with background checks and magazine size limits. We will see how this plays out. And your opinion of my intelligence and supposed 'ignorance' are irrelevant. But thanks for confirming to me that you cannot discuss this topic in a logical manner without insult.
Do you see anything wrong with poll taxes?
 
Old 07-31-2013, 11:19 AM
 
20,858 posts, read 39,100,793 times
Reputation: 19120
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoracer51 View Post
Do you see anything wrong with poll taxes?
Poll taxes and literacy tests are all a throwback to the days of Jim Crow segregation and voter suppression.
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Western, Colorado
1,598 posts, read 2,752,228 times
Reputation: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Poll taxes and literacy tests are all a throwback to the days of Jim Crow segregation and voter suppression.
And please expound how being forced to pay a fee to exercise the right to own and/or carry a firearm is any different?

These firearm laws are capricious, discriminatory and above all are civil rights violations..
 
Old 07-31-2013, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Alaska
2,775 posts, read 2,497,924 times
Reputation: 4623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
It's great. When govt. becomes tyrannical, it is up to the public to remove the tyrants from power.

Eliminating the freedoms of the law abiding majority is not good government.
Truthfully, our representative form of government helps to prevent the rise of "tyrants" through a system of checks and balances.

Just because a represntative does not vote the "right" way does not make him/her a "tyrant".

Many of the posters keeping hollering about their "rights" to own and carry whatever they want, wherever they want but like every other right, they fail to acknowledge and accept the fact that there are, thankfully, limitations.
 
Old 07-31-2013, 12:06 PM
 
704 posts, read 1,498,992 times
Reputation: 629
I don't see why people are debating the merits of a recall election. Colorado law allows for it, and it is happening no matter whether you want it to or not. If people are as convinced that neither legislator should be recalled, then they will simply mark "no" on their ballot, the recalls will fail, and the gun control advocates and anti-recall folks will all walk away happy.

But this is democracy, and I think there is a great opportunity to knock off two legislators for egregiously unwise legislative action. If most folks in El Paso and Pueblo Counties want new legislators, then the state law provides them the right to get them, and that may very well happen in September. When you step on the people who elect you to office, then don't be surprised when those same people boot you out of office. This isn't a monarchy. You are elected, not appointed. And when you are elected to represent an adamantly pro-gun state and you go after gun controls, then, yes, you just might get kicked out of office.
 
Old 07-31-2013, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Colorado
1,969 posts, read 1,979,508 times
Reputation: 1724
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Equally amazing is you try to dismiss law abiding gun owners as being pro-wholesale slaughter of children (or words to that effect). If you don't actually believe it and say it anyway, you're dishonest. If you actually believe it, you're willfully ignorant of who is the law abiding gun owner. It's not an insult, it's a fact.
You are not looking at the big picture. There is a war going on and this is just one battle in it. Let's call it the war between the Egalitarians and the Greedheads.

The Greedheads, as epitomized by the Kochs, Scott Walker, ALEC etc., see an opportunity here for their side to take out two legislators who passed mild gun control legislation which infuriated a minority of gun owners who see anything affecting what they can own as a personal attack. The laws are not personal attacks and they are not aimed at the vast majority of gun owners, they are aimed at making society safer so we don't have so many massacres. It's anti-massacre. That is all obvious.

The Greedheads are taking advantage of your anger about the magazines and/or the background checks in order to lessen the Egalitarian advantage at the state capitol. Since I don't want my state and country to revert even further into plutarchy and lose the war to the Greedheads, I support Morse and Giron.
 
Old 07-31-2013, 01:15 PM
 
20,858 posts, read 39,100,793 times
Reputation: 19120
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoracer51 View Post
And please expound how being forced to pay a fee to exercise the right to own and/or carry a firearm is any different?

These firearm laws are capricious, discriminatory and above all are civil rights violations..
I don't see how they violate civil rights since it applies to all regardless of race, age, gender, etc.

I don't think background checks are the least bit capricious. Why would stopping illegal aliens, terrorists and mentally ill people from getting weapons be capricious; it simply is the role of public safety. Polls indicate that 90% of the general population and even 70% of NRA members are in favor of stronger background checks.

As far as recall elections, it's wrong to have them at all, and is being misused in the current case to simply be hateful and vindictive. For true crimes and malfeasance, the state legislature should have a strong ethics panel that boots out any offenders. Else, if we don't like what they pass we can vote them out at the next regularly scheduled election.
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