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Old 08-25-2013, 03:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
Alberta forest ravaged by beetle kill. Picture included in article linked to above.



That picture makes me so sad, I hate the sight of the beautiful Rocky Mountain forests being destroyed.

Grand Lake, CO looks especially terrible from the beetle devastation.

 
Old 08-25-2013, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Colorado
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It is unfortunate that the Bush regime mentioned by the OP worked to delay or stop progress on addressing global warming for corporate allies, but the current administration has been addressing it. Hopefully it is not too late.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
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davidv wrote: Time will prove one side right.

I suspect that time will prove elements of both sides right.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Bend, OR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidv View Post
I have many thoughts on those who have already posted in this thread, so here they are in no particular order:

- It seems that people confuse weather and climate a lot. Some say that climate change is not real because weathermen cannot predict the weather 5 days from now. Maybe their skepticism goes back to the time their birthday party at the amusement park was ruined because it was rained out on a day with only a 30% chance of rain. We seem to be surprised when it actually rains on a day with a predicted 30% chance of rain, but not surprised when a .300 hitter actually gets a hit. The percentages are not in your favor, but sometimes it happens. Ask lottery winners. Truth is, the global average temperature has exceeded the 20th century average for 341 straight months. I would call that a trend.

- In the past, scientists were not totally accurate, so naysayers think that the entire premise is bad. Nothing could be further from the truth. The seas did not rise by the predicted date, and the world's temps did not rise as fast as some predicted. Big deal. Sea levels and temperatures are up. I am reminded of the work done by a couple of scientists by the names of Johannes Kepler and Tycho Brahe. These two men pioneered the idea that the earth revolved around the sun, not the other way around. Initially, they believed that the sun (not earth) was the center of the universe and that the Earth and other planets revolved around the sun in circular orbits. We found out later that both of those premises were wrong. Today's climate Aristotleans would have us throw out all their work based on these mistakes. The fact remains that the major premise was correct and the details just needed to be improved.

- There are more trees in the US now than there were a couple of centuries ago for two reasons: 1) we stopped chopping down trees for fuel (and switched to carbon-based fuels), and 2) we have planted and cared for trees in cities. Check out any picture of a city in the late 1800s, and you will find that there was virtually no urban canopy. Once we stopped burning wood, trees became decoration that we kept around for decades.

- New technology can help, but not save. Right now, it will take centuries for the earth to absorb all of the extra CO2 in the atmosphere that has been put there largely by human activities. Think of it this way. You can fill a bathtub by pouring water in faster than it can drain, and even when you turn the water off, it will take some time for the excess water to drain out of the tub. This is what we have done with CO2 in our atmosphere.

- On a side note: one reason the US is falling behind in the sciences is because we don't believe our scientists. To us, science is driven by a political agenda, not a quest for truth. Maybe that is the case, or maybe it isn't. All I know is that either way, our science students will continue to lag behind the rest of the world.

I'd type more, but this post is too long, people's eyes will glaze over and, in the end, no one's mind will be changed. Time will prove one side right. For your kids' and grandkids' sakes you better hope that the climate change crowd is wrong. If we do something and climate change turns out to be just a scare, nothing is harmed. But, if climate change is real and we do nothing, then....
Davidv, this is perhaps the best and most rational explanation I've yet thus far. I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, with the state of education in this country (which is a whole other topic in and of itself), it's no wonder people don't trust science.

Unfortunately, I am very afraid of this do nothing mentality in this country. I sure hope all the climate change predictions are wrong too for everyone's sake.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 11:48 AM
 
9,830 posts, read 19,529,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMM64 View Post
That picture makes me so sad, I hate the sight of the beautiful Rocky Mountain forests being destroyed.

Grand Lake, CO looks especially terrible from the beetle devastation.
Destroyed? I call it forest renewal. Some cycles are bigger than your life span.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 03:12 PM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,697 posts, read 4,333,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
Destroyed? I call it forest renewal. Some cycles are bigger than your life span.
Yeah, yeah. "Everything gets old and dies." You've imparted that pearl of wisdom to us already. So, if trees dying from outbreaks of insect infestations are "forest renewal" then riddle me this, oh grasshopper:
Why aren't Forest Service personnel out there smearing insect larva on all the trees in the forest, so they can be "renewed"? Hmmmm...?
 
Old 08-25-2013, 04:30 PM
 
147 posts, read 187,674 times
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I was in Grand Lake back in 2008. Sitting in a local saloon, I mentioned to the bartender how green that mountain was back in the 80s, when I was last in Grand Lake. When I asked why they were not up there cutting that dead stuff down before a lightning strike burns down the whole town, he almost threw me out. He went on to explain that those mountains are in RMP, and that is Federal jurisdiction, and they were dragging their feet. Locals were very frustrated. If the photo above is recent, I guess they still have not dealt with it. Oddly enough, as I was driving south on route 40, I saw a lot of trees had been cut. I guess those trees were outside the park.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 05:04 PM
 
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Lodgepole forests are very common from central Colorado north well into Canada. Rocky Mountain lodgepole forests re-seed and regenerate by burning. Get over it. As a forester friend of mine put it so well some years back: "There are two kinds of lodgepole forests--the ones that are going to burn and the ones that are burning." One of his specialties, by the way, was lodgepole forest ecology.
 
Old 08-25-2013, 06:45 PM
 
147 posts, read 187,674 times
Reputation: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
Yeah, yeah. "Everything gets old and dies." You've imparted that pearl of wisdom to us already. So, if trees dying from outbreaks of insect infestations are "forest renewal" then riddle me this, oh grasshopper:
Why aren't Forest Service personnel out there smearing insect larva on all the trees in the forest, so they can be "renewed"? Hmmmm...?
It has been going on for decades, just not with insect larvae. The Forest Service regularly implements controlled burns so the forests can be "renewed".

That mountain in Grand Lake is in desperate need of a logging operation, since a controlled burn would probably get "out of control".
 
Old 08-25-2013, 07:45 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 25,783,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freewest View Post
It has been going on for decades, just not with insect larvae. The Forest Service regularly implements controlled burns so the forests can be "renewed".

That mountain in Grand Lake is in desperate need of a logging operation, since a controlled burn would probably get "out of control".
Actually, logging in a dying lodgepole forest may stop or delay forest regeneration. Why? Because lodgepole pine cones take the high temperatures of a fire in order to release their seeds to replant the burned area. The best thing that could happen would be for that forest to burn. It wouldn't be a problem except for all the man-made crap built in those "naturally-designed-to-burn" forests.
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