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Old 01-21-2014, 10:16 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 29,357,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Let's Go Here View Post
When it comes to heat, hydronic heat (be it in-floor or baseboard) is the way to go. Hydronic heat is much more efficient and much more comfortable, IMO. If natural gas hydronic heat is an option, go for that.
Baseboard hot water is an excellent way to go IF the boiler is energy efficient. The newer model hot-water boilers are around 95% efficient, but are spendy to buy. A lot of the older ones were 80% efficient or less. Also, baseboard or radiant hot water heat is much more expensive to install than forced air, but I think that it's worth it.
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
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Also hot water baseboard heat has a much better feel to it than hot air heat. Hot air heat blows!
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Old 01-23-2014, 04:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
Also hot water baseboard heat has a much better feel to it than hot air heat. Hot air heat blows!
I can't stand forced air heat. My last two houses have had it and with my allergies, I suffer every time the heat turns on. It just picks up all the dust in the house & moved it around everywhere. Household dust is one of my top 5 allergy sensitivities.

The new home I'm building out on the Florida Mesa will have in floor radiant heat but I am undecided on fuels. I am considering both electric & propane boilers. At current propane prices, it is still cheaper to use propane compared to electricity but there are still some tradeoffs to be considered.
1. Electric boilers are 100% efficient vs propane boilers the most efficient of which are usually around 95%.

2. Electric boilers need no venting, propane boilers must be vented to the outside.

3. Current propane prices here are the equivalent of $.09/kwh vs the $.117/kwh I pay to LaPlata electric coop.

4. Propane would need to rise to $3.00/gal to be equal to electricity in price per BTU in output.

5. Electric boilers cost anywhere from 50-70% of the price of an equivalent propane boiler.
I am planning to have a 6KV PV rooftop solar system installed with net metering back to the grid. I feel that would more than offset any difference in fuel costs incurred by using an electric boiler. However there is an effort underway by Xcel Energy with the Colorado Utility Commission to change the net metering compensation that goes back to solar homeowners to reduce it from $.11/kwh to $.045/kwh. If that does happen & it spreads throughout the state to other electric providers, it seriously damages the economic case for rooftop solar systems by reducing payback rates significantly.

I have not yet made my final decision on this issue. I do need propane regardless since we intend to cook with it. I can't stand the thought of having a real winter here (unlike this year) and having the cost of propane go through the roof, nor do I care for the possibility of installing an electric boiler without having the net metering advantages offered by rooftop solar to offset the additional energy costs.

I still have some time to decide this issue. I do know that some people have installed both & run propane when prices are low & electricity when propane prices rise (like they have in the northeast this year.... have been seeing propane prices as high as $3.45/gal in Massachusetts with the nasty winter they're having up there). Seems like overkill to me to have two boilers and the necessary manifolds & valving to run them though.

I'll continue to evaluate these options as I still have time before needing to make a decision. I find the 100% efficiency of the electric boiler along with no need to vent them outdoors somewhat attractive. Given the fact that my electricity comes from the notorious 4 corners generating station, I'm not sure I'd come out ahead here regardless of which choice I make. The pending net metering decision does of course cast a cloud over possible economic advantages that I hope to gain pairing rooftop solar with an electric boiler.

As much as my techie brain is pushing me to go with an electric boiler, my economic brain is telling me that in the long run, it may still be cheaper to heat with propane. Decisions....decisions.
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Old 01-23-2014, 08:26 PM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post

...Given the fact that my electricity comes from the notorious 4 corners generating station, I'm not sure I'd come out ahead here regardless of which choice I make...

This is a common misconception out here in the Four Corners. That plant is owned and operated by the Arizona Public Service (APS) Company which I believe just bought out the other utility companies (none from Colorado) that it had been partnered with. At one time it provided power to about 300,000 households in New Mexico, Arizona, California and Texas. Now it concentrates mainly on Arizona.

Durango and Cortez, among other towns in Colorado’s Four Corners region get our power through Tri-State which operates a coal fired power plant in Nucla that generates our electricity out here. Why Nucla? For the same reason that the Four Corners Power Plant was located here. Company CEO’s figured a sparse population combined with a lack of regulatory agencies would allow them to pollute to their heart’s content. Too bad for them that so many National Parks and other public lands are located in the Four Corners region. Complaints from both locals and park visitors will most likely result in the eventual shut down of the Four Corners Plant. Alas, for poor little Nucla, its economy has gone t*ts up in the bay due to the loss of its major industry – uranium mining. Add to that the local environmental degradation caused by that same industry and Nucla has nothing to lose and everything to gain by allowing Tri-State to build a coal fired electric plant there, so the rest of us can keep our “dirty lights on.”
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Old 01-23-2014, 09:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post
I can't stand forced air heat. My last two houses have had it and with my allergies, I suffer every time the heat turns on. It just picks up all the dust in the house & moved it around everywhere. Household dust is one of my top 5 allergy sensitivities.
Not to be contrary, but a family member with serious dust allergies abandoned his radiant heating system for forced air so that he could run an electrostatic air cleaner. He has found this to be very effective.
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Old 01-24-2014, 05:44 PM
 
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My understanding is that the Nucla power plant will be shutting down relatively soon. So much for that.

Quite bluntly, I think that people who continue building out in the rural areas of Colorado that have no economic reason to be there are going to get some really unpleasant surprises in skyrocketing living costs in the years ahead. Since most them are retirees on fixed incomes, that is probably going to hurt them badly--and the exodus of the less financially robust when that crunch comes will likely "bust" that real estate market. Propane costs will be one that is going to spiral, but so will electric rates, and--of course--gasoline and diesel fuel prices. In our economic environment, most of that is already "baked in the cake." It's just a matter of how soon it comes and how quickly the cost escalation progresses.

I had a chance to buy several rural properties at some pretty smokin' deal prices in the last couple of years. I demurred. I found a property in town--with natural gas, domestic water service, etc. available, and at reasonably stable prices. Compared to similar properties situated even just a few miles away in rural areas, I'm already saving many hundreds of dollars per year in avoided costs. It doesn't take a genius, either, to see which properties will hold their value when energy costs really explode again.
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Old 01-24-2014, 07:33 PM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
6,926 posts, read 6,884,708 times
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Yeah, it's my understanding that the Nucla plant could shut down by the end of this year even though it does have a 40 year contract with the mine which currently supplies its coal. There's been talk of retrofitting the Nucla plant to make it more "green", but I doubt there will be the money for such a project. My take is that both Nucla and Naturita will continue their downhill economic slide and eventually become little better than ghost towns.
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Old 01-30-2014, 12:20 PM
 
599 posts, read 949,958 times
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As I said before, avoid propane at all costs. If you cannot get natural gas and are looking at installing a new furnace, think seriously about converting to electric baseboard heat, or even better (but a lot of $$$$$$), a ground source heat pump. If you are due for a water heater replacement, go electric. The manipulation of the propane market, combined with a lack of storage, means every few year the prices spike to ridiculous levels.

"Colorado prices, which vary by region and dealer, jumped between Jan. 16 and Friday to as much as $6 a gallon from around $2.30, according to dealers."


Midwest cold snap spikes propane prices in Colorado - The Denver Post
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Old 01-30-2014, 02:42 PM
 
26,112 posts, read 48,696,623 times
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Consider a wood stove that is built into a forced air system. My sister has this in her basement and it heats the whole house quite effectively for a very economical cost.

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Old 01-31-2014, 04:38 PM
 
1,072 posts, read 1,938,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrby View Post
Not to be contrary, but a family member with serious dust allergies abandoned his radiant heating system for forced air so that he could run an electrostatic air cleaner. He has found this to be very effective.
I've had forced air with an electrostatic air cleaner before, in both of my last two houses. Suffered terribly with it from household dust. Every single time the heat turned on, the symptoms started.

Never again......
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