Driving in the Winter Snow. (Denver, Parker: work, invest, company)

[pdth]

Studded tires aren't legal, but snow tires do help. Pickup trucks are notoriously bad in the snow unless you put a lot of weight in the back. Driving in the snow is basically like skating. Just like skating, lessons will go a long way to helping you feel good about it.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by pdth

Studded tires aren't legal....

Is this a correct statement?

[sunsprit]

Snow Tires with studs are legal in Colorado. You can check this out on the CDOT website if you need further assistance.

A large pick-up truck type vehicle with large (wide) tires on it for street use is dangerous, IMO, on the icy roads that we have in Colorado. The wide tires have a low pressure contact patch on the snow, which provides flotation ... and slides readily on the ice or snow. All-Season tires are especially misleading for this application ... they don't work well on a pick-up truck on icy surfaces, especially if the tires are bigger than what GM had for a stock tire size on the vehicle.

You would do better to get a set of dedicated winter season tires in the smallest size that is made for your truck ... look up the original size spec'd tire for the truck, it should be listed in your owner's manual, or a sticker inside the door jamb or the fuel fill flap. Most tires stores "upsell" a buyer to larger tires; I've seen tire "salesmen" look at the tires on a vehicle and sell the next bigger tire size without regard to what the original size tire was for the vehicle. Gets to the point of dangerous when they've upsized the tires several times over the stock size ....

If you are using the truck in the winter for transportation and not hauling loads up to it's rated capacity, then the stock size winter tire will be a great help. You should still add weight in back to help set the suspension into it's normal range. Several hundred pounds of sand bags will help a lot.

As noted above, you must drive appropriately for the conditions. Driving gently for acceleration and stopping ... anticipating stops a much futher distance away than on dry pavement ... and not overdriving the speed for which you have adequate traction are all keys to driving safely on these snowy days. A driving course would certainly help bring your skills and awareness up to standard, too.

[suzco]

Originally Posted by pdth
Studded tires aren't legal....

Originally Posted by Charles

Is this a correct statement?

No. Studded tires are legal in Colorado (but not all of our neighboring states). Here's a link to Colorado State Patrol faqs. http://csp.state.co.us/faq_detail.cfm?FAQ_ID=32 (broken link)

Studded tires can be used year round in Colorado.

[EscapeCalifornia]

Originally Posted by COflower

I don't know if MasterDrive is up there, but I highly, highly recommend that people new to winter driving take their winter driving courses.

The owner started his company after his daughter (my age) died in high school when a drunk driver plowed into her and her friend. She's didn't survive the crash.

Anyhow, Ron also works (worked) with various police departments and the state patrol to teach police officers as well. If the don't have a Denver location, I highly recommend you come to C Springs to take their classes. When I worked with them for the teens vs. cops at a Pikes Peak Hill Climb thing back in the late 80s, I learned soooo much from one of their instructors. I have always been a good driver but the knowledge I got from them will never escape me.

I admit I should take a couple of their courses even though I've been driving in winter weather for the better part of 23 - almost 24 years. Even seasoned drivers need to learn.

Do they only operate during the winter or do they have some way of simulating winter driving any time?

[INPHX]

[quote=sunsprit;2317664]

A large pick-up truck type vehicle with large (wide) tires on it for street use is dangerous, IMO, on the icy roads that we have in Colorado.


Thanks for the advice, but I think there is a misunderstanding. I drive a TAHOE, which is a SUV that Chevy makes. My tires are by all means not big. They have a 20"(Rim) Wheel, which is the next size up. Not far from the manufacture. I cant just go and put a smaller tire on , the wheel is 20". My all season tires are not wide there just bigger and fill in the wheel well. My truck as custom wheels like a Cadillac Escalade. I do believe the problem is the all season tire. I will look into a good set of winter tires. One thing about being from AZ it's part of the culture to upgrade your vehicle with nice tires. Tires and Wheels (Rims) stay looking nice there all year round. It's also easy there to get a full service car wash(everything done for you) for cheap. Hence the cheap labor. LOL. But I am sure just the size of tire does create some hydro plaining. Well thanks to all for the info.

[sunsprit]

No misunderstanding here about the larger tires on your vehicle.

What you've accomplished is to have a larger, hence lower pressure, contact patch where the tire meets the road. You can get this larger contact patch from either a wider tire, or a bigger diameter one than stock. So much for the good looks of the wheel upgrade making the vehicle more dangerous to drive in the road conditions here.

You may want to consider having a second set of wheels for the winter, mounted with appropriate winter tires for the vehicle. It's not only your safety at stake, but the safety of others around you on the road.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by Charles

Can studs be applied to studdable snow tire if the snow tires have already been driven about 1000 miles?

Didn't hear back on this (I guess I should just call the place that installed my snow tires anyway...)

It seems driving on snow is no big deal at all unless the depth of the snow affects your driving. Snow seems to have pretty good traction. It is ice on the road that terrifies me. Just going 10-20 mph and tapping the brakes can cause the antilocks to engage...very nerve racking.

Also, does anyone have a feel for how long studded tires are effective? Meaning, do the studs wear out before the tire actually needs to be replaced? Some people where telling me that the stud feature or stud utility or stud effectiveness is pretty degraded prior to the tire needing replacing. Sound right?

Next question, when driving on ice (like the conditions of freezing fog I encountered in Falcon a week ago) would tire chains have made a difference. My assumption is of course they would. Now, are there any type of tire chains that are easier (I know, define easier...) to put on than others?

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by Charles

Didn't hear back on this (I guess I should just call the place that installed my snow tires anyway...)

It seems driving on snow is no big deal at all unless the depth of the snow affects your driving. Snow seems to have pretty good traction. It is ice on the road that terrifies me. Just going 10-20 mph and tapping the brakes can cause the antilocks to engage...very nerve racking.

Also, does anyone have a feel for how long studded tires are effective? Meaning, do the studs wear out before the tire actually needs to be replaced? Some people where telling me that the stud feature or stud utility or stud effectiveness is pretty degraded prior to the tire needing replacing. Sound right?

Next question, when driving on ice (like the conditions of freezing fog I encountered in Falcon a week ago) would tire chains have made a difference. My assumption is of course they would. Now, are there any type of tire chains that are easier (I know, define easier...) to put on than others?

There are two things that will help traction on ice, besides chains. First is having the tires "siped." These are small crosscuts made in the tread. This will help ice traction at least a little. The tradeoff is usually shortened tire life. The second, and more effective, are studs. Back in the "old days" of non-radial snow tires and RWD cars, "studded snows" were the tire of choice in winter. People used to only put them on the drive wheels. That's a mistake--if you are going to use them, they need to be on all four wheels for maximum benefit. They aren't just for traction, but also help with steering and stopping. Studs do indeed wear down, often before the tire is worn out. Another major disadvantage is that they tear the hell out of dry roads. I can remember I-25 between Denver and Colorado Springs literally having deep ruts dug in the concrete from decades of studded tires running on it. That is why so many states restrict stud use, or ban them outright--they tear up the roads.

I haven't had a set of studded tires for about 25 years now (and I haven't chained up in about 30), and I've driven on A LOT of bad roads. I haven't had any real problems because a) I learned a long time ago how to drive on some pretty slick roads and stay safe; and b) I know when road conditions are bad enough to just stay off of them. The worst thing about icy roads is that you can have the best tires, the best driving skills--and still get hammered because SOME OTHER IDIOT who doesn't know what he or she is doing can run into you. The only accident (quite minor, thankfully) that I ever have had in nearly 40 winters of driving on slick roads happened exactly that way--somebody skidded and ran into me.

Just going 10-20 mph and tapping the brakes can cause the antilocks to engage...very nerve racking.

You ought to try that in the "old days" before ABS--yee haw! I learned the best way to drive on ice is as if you have a rotten egg strapped on the bottom of your right foot, and you REALLY DON'T want to break it.

[COflower]

Originally Posted by EscapeCalifornia

Do they only operate during the winter or do they have some way of simulating winter driving any time?

I think they can simulate winter driving any time of year.

Here's their website: http://www.masterdrive.com/

One of our news stations down here featured a story on them in October I think and even without actual snow, they taught one of the journalists to drive in simulated winter conditions when there wasn't any snow.

Also, there's a place up in Steamboat run by a tire company - I think Bridgestone/Firestone (it too was on some major news outlet like ABC news or the Today show - can't remember which one) that uses the snow brought by Mother Nature herself.



Hey Charles - FWIW, my landlord/friend who now lives in Florida would put his studded snows on each year. He had two sets of tires, performance for non-snow months and his studded snows.

Now, I personally think that studded snows are not needed. Having dated a guy that lived up in Summit County, he had a beater of a Honda and regular M+S rated tires. He traveled around the area just fine.

One thing I like about a manual transmission (but not a fan when it's stop and go traffic) is the ability to downshift when approaching an intersection and to even start out in a higher gear when going up hill. I get more traction when I hit this one stupid intersection in my neighborhood by starting in 2nd rather than in 1st.

Back to studded snows. They are useful but only when it snows (and yes, they are legal but you can get a ticket if they see you driving on dry pavement - weird eh?). Stopping on dry pavement in studded snows is not much better than stopping while on a thin layer of ice or a wet roadway. I worked for a tire dealer and we usually would recommend a good mud and snow rated tire. You can lose some performance but overall, they are the best way to equip your car for winter driving and even seem to do well in summer months when you come across a thunderstorm.

Anyhow, I think the added expense of studded snows are not needed on the Front Range where we don't get a ton of snow. Just better your winter driving skills and we all win. :-)



jazzlover - haha, I learned to drive in adverse winter conditions before ABS. I still have to remind myself to not pump the brakes. I much prefer to pump on my own than have that thump, thump, thump at my foot! It freaks me out every time and coming in out of my 'hood after a small snow event (I need new tires like you wouldn't believe). Some days I wish I could disable my ABS and drive like I did in the "old" days.

Oh and I had a CRX back in the late 80s...holy cow that was a fun little car to tool around in the snow. I would hit the e-brake/parking brake on a street after a snow storm that wasn't well traveled and WEEEEEEE! Fun times. At my age though, I wouldn't even consider it. I lost my adventurous (sp) side in the mid 90s when I hit an ice patch on highway 24 just outside of Manitou and my monster of a truck fishtailed and biffed it into one of the guard rails. That was not a planned event but scared me straight from driving like a moron.

Oh, those were the days.