Some interesting predictions for 2008 (Denver, Aurora: credit, home, neighborhood)

[CosmicWizard]

jazzlover wrote:

I do sense an already growing anger in the American middle class

IMO, this is a good thing! Although I'm not a fan of either winner in the Iowa caucuses last night, I'm feeling pretty good about the outcome.

blessings...Franco

[dj32]

jazzlover, don't you think some of this depends on who we elect into office? After all, the current President is one who really put many wealthy into the "wealthier" state they are in today. Ironically, many of those who voted for him are in the lower middle class.

[atgt13]

Excellent post Sea Level. I find myself pushing the dooms day theme a lot, thank God for people like you.

[atgt13]

[quote= All we need is honest tough leadership and a Congress that isn't for sale.[/quote]


...and congressional term limits (what's good for the goose (pres) is good for the gander), line item veto (repair congressional spending budgets that often seem to be written with the precision of a shotgun), and responsible litigation (to prevent the I'll-sue-you trigger).

Most inevitable though and possibly most necessary is an attitude change of our populace away from dependence on the federal government for handouts and protection for anything except our borders from attack. The mentality that what I earned is mine, and if he earned more, some of that should be mine too contributes to the attitude problem as well. The greed, ignorance, and arrogance of the majority of our population that irresponsibly place everything onto an unaffordable credit card or ridiculous mortgage will fuel the coming recession, and it will only be remedied by the lesson learned that you must buy what you can afford, not more, eat what you need, not more, and learn that you've never learned enough or you should suffer the full weight of the consequences, no less.

[atgt13]

Originally Posted by dj32

... the current President is one who really put many wealthy into the "wealthier" state they are in today. Ironically, many of those who voted for him are in the lower middle class.

I presume you are alluding to his "tax-cuts for the rich". His tax-cuts provided stimulus to the economy that enabled those who wanted to work hard, get a job, and become successful by creating new companies or fulfulling a company's demand for employees.

Your message about the "wealthy getting wealthier" incorrectly implies some underhanded moves by the president. One of the current front-runners for the "little man" and "lower middle class", John Edwards, has more money than most of us could ever dream of, but does he wield that treasure chest to help people and create self-worth and responsibility or to gain power and create reliance?

Those (and their descendants) who work harder, longer, and are innovative earn more (whether they start with nothing, like the ancestors of today's "wealthy", or start with something, like the descendants of yesterday's "lower middle class" or "poor"). Those who overachieve become "wealthier" or more commonly "earn more", and those who merely achieve or underachieve "reap what they sow" or "earn less".

You should be careful with the insinuations of wealth derived only by luck, and that everybody deserves a handful of the "wealth" from the federal treasury that was not earned, but stolen from the pockets of the "wealthy" just the same as (if not a larger percentage than) the "lower middle class" through taxation.

Most of those currently in the "lower middle class" are just as unlucky as most of the "wealthy" are lucky. The wealthy ones might have been lucky enough to have had family that worked hard to provide better for their descendants, just as the lower middle class were unlucky enough to have family that didn't work hard enough to provide better for their descendants. The key, IMHO, is if you find yourself in the lower middle class, get up and bust your butt so that your descendants can speak vaguely, yet thankfully, of their relatives who wouldn't sit around and wait to become LUCKY or merely settle for the right to hold on tightly to being called UNLUCKY.

[steveco.]

Ah yes create a whole futuristic set of hilton sisters and spears

[atgt13]

...or Nancy Pelosi, JFK, John Edwards, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, the list could go on ... people don't have to be born in a slum to turn out to be good productive "wealthy" people. For every example you give of a descendant of hard working parents that saved and invested wisely that is a spoiled brat, there are many that turn out to be good hard working and yes, "wealthy", Americans.

I should also mention your comment smacks of a policy of punishing the wealthy so they don't go and spend it on their children with the chance of the children becoming like Paris. Let's see how well you would have grown up if you had 15 cameramen following you around since you were 5. BTW, Britney's parents were a teacher and building contractor. I agree with you, let's recommend no teachers or contractors have kids, or at least make sure that if the kids start becoming successful, we tax them enough so that they can't make mistakes with the money they earned.... sounds like, "I WANT TO TAKE THOSE PROFITS!"-Hillary Clinton

[CareFreeAZ]

Originally Posted by dj32

jazzlover, don't you think some of this depends on who we elect into office? After all, the current President is one who really put many wealthy into the "wealthier" state they are in today. Ironically, many of those who voted for him are in the lower middle class.

Also voting for him are the many elderly folk who still drive around with the Bush election bumperstickers form Circa 2000. Not that I want to get started on this but my Jack Russell Terrier could have been in office the past 8 years and still outperform this Jack@!@.

[Mike from back east]

Okay gang, we've gotten off track by veering into politics. Any more political posts here will get deleted. Please, no hate mail, I get enough as it is.

Let's get back to Kunstler's predictions.... are they
- valid?
- over the top?
- grain of truth taken to nth degree?
- glimpse of the future?
- good sarcastic humor poked at our financial and fuelish foibles?

IMO, Kunstler takes many grains of truth, which I don't dispute are there, and he weaves them through many paragraphs. But I think he extrapolates not only a worst case scenario - but way beyond. Perhaps his writing deserves to be the screenplay for a Stephen King horror flick:
- The Economic Armageddon That Ate Wall Street
- Hell in the Suburbs
- Attack of the SUV People

[tfox]

I think there's two very distinct categories of exurban sprawl, and I think that this credit contraction combined with our diminishing purchasing power will affect the two types differently.

The first type is "drive-till-you-qualify" sprawl. In metro Denver, this is fairly typical of what we have been seeing thrown up in Weld County. The target home buyers don't have any real desire to live so far out, except that they can't afford anything comparable closer in. Or, they may be so enamored by shiny new construction that they're willing to live halfway to Greeley in order to get it. Either way, the decision to live out there is driven mainly by financial reasons (in hindsight, of course, a very poor decision to make.). This type of sprawl, I think, will be dealt a blow by the recent crisis, temporarily grinding to a halt. In many ways, it's a good thing, as this type of sprawl is pernicious and unsustainable, though you have to feel for the poor people who have lost their homes in the mess, not to mention the others who are struggling to make ends meet as their homes drop further in value.

The second, however, is those who choose to live out there by choice because they want acreage, horses, mountain property, etc. Such people often have the ability to telecommute, are retired, or otherwise don't need to commute daily to jobs. This type of sprawl, I think, is the type of sprawl that Jazzlover dislikes more than the former, as it is more likely in a fragile environment, with a larger resource footprint and more conspicous consumption than the former. Unfortunately, I think that such sprawl is likely to continue despite the current crisis.