san luis valley just south of the dunes (Durango, Alamosa: lawyer, real estate)

[Dreaming of Hawaii]

Michael, you sound like you have some good ideas, but I keep thinking there has to be a reason why there are not more lodging choices closer to the entrance to the park. Is it because of availability of land, is it because people only stop at the dunes for the day and move on, or what? I don't know, but hopefully you will find some answers.

Also, you have high hopes of people wanting to spend money for guided tours around a natural area that has very little media hype. Most of the people I know (and I live in Colorado) drive to the dunes in their own vehicles and hike, and many have their own 4-wheel drive vehicles that they use to drive off-roading. It's not the kind of place that tourists who don't know Colorado flock to. And I just don't get the idea of hiring a helicopter to take you somewhere to go hiking -- there's so much hiking in this state that people can already get to on their own. Sounds like you would be appealing to a small clientele.

[jkcoop]

Originally Posted by michael11747

i bet you didn't like the dunes because you didn't go on one of our tours. we hope to take customers sand skiing, and utilizing dune buggies and such.

Actually, no we are not "tour" type people - we like to do stuff on our own, and dune buggies or anything noisy like that in the wilderness drives me nuts.
For us, there is only so much to see in the sand. I actually found White Sands down in New Mexico is it? much prettier.
It just wasn't our thing - I know some people love it and can spend hours there. To me, compared to other National Parks, it wasn't something I'd go back to.
We are more backpacking in the the wilderness types of people.

[jkcoop]

By the way, I'm really not trying to discourage you, just giving you my perspective of the area. Just have to be really realistic as to what the possibilities might be. It will be a good thing if you are just wanting to do the business as a side thing - not counting on it to make any money.
Believe me - I know what starting a business regarding the tourism industry is about, especially when it is an extremely specialty business.
My husband and I started one here in Denver last April. It is something that caters to a small market, but wasn't existing here. It has been hard - but very enjoyable for the most part.
Course we aren't making any money yet
If it's what you want and it's your dream, do as much research as you can, go in with no blinders on so you can make the best decision. The dream is a good one - it might just be not the right place for it, or maybe it is. Only you can eventually determine that after doing all the homework.

[michael11747]

yes i have seen that page, and i also noticed there was no resounding "no" as an answer to the question. i then clicked on a few more links from the nps site and it says they do 4wd drive tours in the park. so you can see my confusion. looks like more research is necessary. thanks! mike.

[michael11747]

oh by the way. electric dune buggies don't make any noise and leave only tire tracks. we are a very eco-conscious couple and we are leaving montana because of the development. who would've thunk it? we came to the gallatin valley about 5 years ago, and just had to witness more and more people arriving every year. i am not saying they don't have a right to be there, but the development is out of control.

and i have thought of other places to start a business like this, but to me, this area draws me more so than any other in colorado. i honestly (and no offense) do not enjoy the crowd in most parts of colorado. one of my other favorites was the san juans around silverton. but within the few years we have been looking at land down there, it has just skyrocketed. we still considered moving there as well, but we know what happens with high land values... development. usually irresponsible development. if you want to put up your shack and enjoy the views from your livingroom, i can understand that. when you take 200 acres, divide it, pave it, build the same houses on it, put a lawn on it, put up miles of fence, put in non-native trees or plants which just aren't suited to the environment, then it just becomes unbearable to us. this is what is happening out here, and i could see it happening in other beautiful spots in colorado in about 5 years when the market is back in full swing. but not so much in the san luis . so that is where i stand.

the business will definately be a way for us to "pass time". we live for the outdoors, and when people say the land is desolate, i usually disagree. i remember families driving to yellowstone and saying how boring it was. 90 percent of tourists (3,000,000 of them) never leave the pavement. now i personally love it, because i have the backcountry to myself, but there is always something to do. peace and quiet are a commodity nowadays, and you will pay good money up here in montana to get a parcel like that. and usually the people moving to that parcel will build a house on it which will be sold within a few years because "it's so boring out here". that makes me sad. but i digress...

i won't know for sure what is going on until i get out there. hopefully we will fall in love with the place and settle down there. i just am sick of running away from development. i can go to suburban nyc, or LA, or bozeman MT and the houses all look the same. i wonder why people choose this way of life...

[winglady]

Michael,

I'm the co-author of the guidebook to Great Sand Dunes and vicinity, so I think I can fairly say I know the area very well.

Forgive me if I repeat something others have said, but let me comment on a few things:

1) I believe something like a B&B that is close to the NP entrance could do very well. There is a small motel at the Oasis property just outside the entrance, but it only has about 10 rooms. There is also a 2-unit building out on the flat, treeless region next to US 150, but it is somewhat old and definitely not an upscale type of lodging.

Zapata Ranch used to offer cabin-like lodging to the public, but now that it is operated by The Nature Conservancy, there are few ocassions when people can stay there (we got to stay once, and it was lovely). If the property you are looking at is anything like their place, it would be ideal (lots of cottonwoods, gorgeous views, flowing water). Unfortunately, not much of that part of the SLV has any trees whatsoever, and is flat, flat, flat.

Alamosa has a very successful B&B that is often booked solid from Memorial Day through Labor Day. However, Alamosa and the other surrounding towns are somewhat of a drive from the Park, so I believe attractive lodging nearer the entrance would be a big plus.

2) Recreation: Motorized vehicles of any kind are absolutely, unequivicably banned from going off-road within the National Park boundaries. The tour vehicle you are reading about is operated by Great Sand Dunes Oasis (based just outside the park). They drive an open-air vehicle equiped with special balloon-like tires along the Medano Pass Primitive Road within the park. This road is infamous for being able to "swallow" 4WD vehicles in its soft sand, so many visitors are reluctant (for good reason) to try to drive the length of the road. There are a lot of beautiful places to see back along the Primitive Road, so for most people, the options are a long hike on sand or take the tour offered by the Oasis.

It sounds like you may need to do some homework on legal and permit issues for offering recreation in the National Park, the National Preserve (some of the area surrounding the Park is designated Preserve), look at what the Wilderness boundaries are in the region, etc. You might start by contacting the staff at Great Sand Dunes. I know a number of the people there -- they can be extremely helpful.


Of course, as you've acknowledged, one of the most important things would be for you to come visit the site in person to decide if it might meet your needs. The SLV is an immense flat, high desert, with some pockets of wetlands and other interesting features. The general description you gave for the property location could actually be in a very pretty area -- or in a very dry, flat, tree-less spot. Or in the midst of wetlands where you can't build.

One final comment: I LOVE this area, although I wouldn't choose to live there full time. Best of luck to you!

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by michael11747

oh by the way. electric dune buggies don't make any noise and leave only tire tracks. we are a very eco-conscious couple and we are leaving montana because of the development. who would've thunk it? we came to the gallatin valley about 5 years ago, and just had to witness more and more people arriving every year. i am not saying they don't have a right to be there, but the development is out of control.

and i have thought of other places to start a business like this, but to me, this area draws me more so than any other in colorado. i honestly (and no offense) do not enjoy the crowd in most parts of colorado. one of my other favorites was the san juans around silverton. but within the few years we have been looking at land down there, it has just skyrocketed. we still considered moving there as well, but we know what happens with high land values... development. usually irresponsible development. if you want to put up your shack and enjoy the views from your livingroom, i can understand that. when you take 200 acres, divide it, pave it, build the same houses on it, put a lawn on it, put up miles of fence, put in non-native trees or plants which just aren't suited to the environment, then it just becomes unbearable to us. this is what is happening out here, and i could see it happening in other beautiful spots in colorado in about 5 years when the market is back in full swing. but not so much in the san luis . so that is where i stand.

the business will definately be a way for us to "pass time". we live for the outdoors, and when people say the land is desolate, i usually disagree. i remember families driving to yellowstone and saying how boring it was. 90 percent of tourists (3,000,000 of them) never leave the pavement. now i personally love it, because i have the backcountry to myself, but there is always something to do. peace and quiet are a commodity nowadays, and you will pay good money up here in montana to get a parcel like that. and usually the people moving to that parcel will build a house on it which will be sold within a few years because "it's so boring out here". that makes me sad. but i digress...

i won't know for sure what is going on until i get out there. hopefully we will fall in love with the place and settle down there. i just am sick of running away from development. i can go to suburban nyc, or LA, or bozeman MT and the houses all look the same. i wonder why people choose this way of life...

If you are running away from development in Montana, then Colorado is almost sure to be a disappointment. Montana is about half again as big as Colorado in area, with only about 20% of the population. I will agree with you that the San Luis Valley and much of its surrounding mountains are about the most unspoiled spots left in Colorado, but to assume that they will stay that way longer than many locales in Montana is based on hope--and not much more. I have lived in both Colorado and Wyoming, and traveled just about all of the Rocky Mountain West--for well over 40 years. If finding a beautiful, undeveloped spot to live was my only criteria, I would probably be in northern Wyoming or somewhere in Montana. I can think of close to a dozen towns and/or places in northern Wyoming and Montana that I could like--Dillon (MT), Deer Lodge, Ennis, Sheridan (WY), Buffalo (WY), just to name a few. Unfortunately, my career pretty much requires me to live either in or near Colorado or Utah.

There are many nice things about the SLV and its surrounding area, some which are not appreciated by the rich yuppie crowd, which makes it all the more attractive to me. That said, it has stayed relatively undeveloped because it is an EXTREMELY difficult place in which to make a living. I have many friends in the SLV, and know a lot of people from there who had to leave (not by choice) in order to make a living. Of those ones who still live there, virtually none of their children have been able to stay in the SLV when they grew up. That's a pretty common deal in Colorado--the Front Range cities are full of ex-rural Coloradans who couldn't afford to stay in rural Colorado.

As to Silverton, you are absolutely right about it. A friend of mine who lived there for twenty-some years running a tourist-related business just left. He figured out that he had been working for minimum wage for about the last 5 years, and could see that was never going to change. His lack of income was not from being a poor businessperson--he was one the smartest I know. It's just that difficult to make a living in a business in those places. The big money coming into those places in large part only benefits the people who owned a lot of land there for a long-time or those who have prostituted themselves into the real estate and development business. For everybody else, it just makes it more expensive to live there and try to run a business.

You might also want to check out some of the lesser known towns in New Mexico, if you want to get away from development, but just be ready for the culture shock of rural New Mexico--it's unique.

Sorry to sound like Johnny Raincloud, but I've knocking around this region for a long time, and have seen an awful lot of people have a "dream" turn into a real nightmare.

[michael11747]

hey guys, thanks for all the info. it's not very important to me about off-roading in the sand dunes. we have a lot of tour ideas. the heli-hiking would be a later development for older tourists IF we start getting business. in the beginning, we will guide hikes, and backpacking trips in the dunes and especially in the sangres. like i said i have not seen the lot yet, and once i get a look at it i will decide for sure. if it is what i think it is, we will buy it. we aren't fools, and we own property in the gallatin valley. we will wait for the market to turn around and cash out, because we are sick of it. jazzlover, i love it when people talk about the lesser known cities of the greater yellowstone eco-system, but as for small business, all the niches in my area of expertise are already occupied. construction, tourism, and cooking are almost impossible to get a foothold in nowadays. as of last count there were 1800 contractors in the valley. deer lodge is in a beautiful area, and we have looked at land around there, but the town is filled with meth heads. dillon is nice, but once again, the crowd is not my type. as for wyoming towns, we can't afford those. especially in the area you are talking about. i do like the area though, and i think i would live in wapiti, just west of cody near the park entrance if i were to move around there. but i am not really looking at living in a town at all. if you think development is bad in colorado, take a look at the bozeman page on here. note the dates on the last census. we have an estimated daytime population of 75000, with services for 45000. our "official" population is hovering around 40000. everyone who lives here knows that isn't even close. we have a bit of a problem with illegals, and homeless hippies who aren't even counted. since i have been here, the town has doubled in size, and i mean land area. now, the city limits haven't increased so much, and they have started annexing all over the valley, but belgrade, four corners, gallatin gateway, and even CHURCHILL are merging into one area. there are a few ranches left, but soon the developers will fill in these gaps. it's interesting you mention ennis. i LOVE ennis, and i would live in the area in a second. but have you seen land prices lately? what a shame. it's too bad about silverton. i think that might be one of the prettiest areas in the lower 48. what areas of utah have you explored and thought about moving to? my girlfriend is from provo, and her family is old school mormon. they made that trek from missouri a 100 years ago. unfortunately we aren't mormon, and it is a bit overwhelming to be surrounded by people who want you to believe in something so bad. but i do love southern utah. it has such a strange feeling to it. i can't explain it, but one day i would like to have a parcel out there.

winglady, thank you for your advice. i do have some more research for sure. you have given me a little glimmer of hope amongst all of these realists. now, i know the area, i have been through it a few times, and i have read and studied the statistics, and it doesn't look like it would be a good spot for a small business to start. for MOST businesses, i would agree. but with 300,000 visitors to the area, even if they don't stay at our place and just pass through, we still will have something to offer. as for the off road tours... i was reading about something called the bison tours. according to the nps website, they either use horses for the "hay ride"? or off road tours with rangers i believe. there isn't any other details on the site, other than this brief mention of off road tours. but we are confident we can stay afloat anywhere that has an "attraction". we would get a little lonely, at worst, if no one stopped by, but we aren't going to go broke with this business. we work from home, we can build, grow a little of our own food, and we are pretty resourceful. we have many ways we can make a living out there. do alpacas sound like a good idea? i hear there is a lot of hay production in the slv. what is the price of a bale down there? can't be more expensive than in the gallatin valley... well, thanks again, i really appreciate all of your input! this has definately opened a new window into our plans! mike.

[multitrak]

"Typical greasewood "chico brush" in the Closed Basin of the northern San Luis Valley in Colorado. Taken just south of the bridge over La Garita Creek on Highway 17 between Hooper and Moffa, Colorado. View is to the southeast. The Great Sand Dunes are in the background as are the Sangre De Cristo Mountains. Mosca Pass is the low point, Mount Blanca the peak on the right."

from San Luis Valley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

personally, i love this area because it is so harsh and uninviting...and oh yeah, you'll need a lot of water for hay...lots!

[michael11747]

i was thinking of purchasing hay, not growing it. i want my land to stay as it has been, with no fences, save a small one for alpacas. love the picture, just how i picture the area. i believe my lot will be a bit hillier than this though.