san luis valley just south of the dunes (farming, ARM)

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by michael11747

hey guys, thanks for all the info. it's not very important to me about off-roading in the sand dunes. we have a lot of tour ideas. the heli-hiking would be a later development for older tourists IF we start getting business. in the beginning, we will guide hikes, and backpacking trips in the dunes and especially in the sangres. like i said i have not seen the lot yet, and once i get a look at it i will decide for sure. if it is what i think it is, we will buy it. we aren't fools, and we own property in the gallatin valley. we will wait for the market to turn around and cash out, because we are sick of it. jazzlover, i love it when people talk about the lesser known cities of the greater yellowstone eco-system, but as for small business, all the niches in my area of expertise are already occupied. construction, tourism, and cooking are almost impossible to get a foothold in nowadays. as of last count there were 1800 contractors in the valley. deer lodge is in a beautiful area, and we have looked at land around there, but the town is filled with meth heads. dillon is nice, but once again, the crowd is not my type. as for wyoming towns, we can't afford those. especially in the area you are talking about. i do like the area though, and i think i would live in wapiti, just west of cody near the park entrance if i were to move around there. but i am not really looking at living in a town at all. if you think development is bad in colorado, take a look at the bozeman page on here. note the dates on the last census. we have an estimated daytime population of 75000, with services for 45000. our "official" population is hovering around 40000. everyone who lives here knows that isn't even close. we have a bit of a problem with illegals, and homeless hippies who aren't even counted. since i have been here, the town has doubled in size, and i mean land area. now, the city limits haven't increased so much, and they have started annexing all over the valley, but belgrade, four corners, gallatin gateway, and even CHURCHILL are merging into one area. there are a few ranches left, but soon the developers will fill in these gaps. it's interesting you mention ennis. i LOVE ennis, and i would live in the area in a second. but have you seen land prices lately? what a shame. it's too bad about silverton. i think that might be one of the prettiest areas in the lower 48. what areas of utah have you explored and thought about moving to? my girlfriend is from provo, and her family is old school mormon. they made that trek from missouri a 100 years ago. unfortunately we aren't mormon, and it is a bit overwhelming to be surrounded by people who want you to believe in something so bad. but i do love southern utah. it has such a strange feeling to it. i can't explain it, but one day i would like to have a parcel out there.

winglady, thank you for your advice. i do have some more research for sure. you have given me a little glimmer of hope amongst all of these realists. now, i know the area, i have been through it a few times, and i have read and studied the statistics, and it doesn't look like it would be a good spot for a small business to start. for MOST businesses, i would agree. but with 300,000 visitors to the area, even if they don't stay at our place and just pass through, we still will have something to offer. as for the off road tours... i was reading about something called the bison tours. according to the nps website, they either use horses for the "hay ride"? or off road tours with rangers i believe. there isn't any other details on the site, other than this brief mention of off road tours. but we are confident we can stay afloat anywhere that has an "attraction". we would get a little lonely, at worst, if no one stopped by, but we aren't going to go broke with this business. we work from home, we can build, grow a little of our own food, and we are pretty resourceful. we have many ways we can make a living out there. do alpacas sound like a good idea? i hear there is a lot of hay production in the slv. what is the price of a bale down there? can't be more expensive than in the gallatin valley... well, thanks again, i really appreciate all of your input! this has definately opened a new window into our plans! mike.

Well, I can certainly understand what you are talking about. It is a shame what has happened to Bozeman. Unfortunately, the kind of growth and spiraling of real estate prices (along with the killing off of agriculture) that are occurring in Bozeman have been the norm in Colorado for about 25 years now. And, quite frankly, no area anywhere near the mountains or in the mountains in Colorado has been immune from it. Which sort of brings me back to my original point--the fact that those parcels in the San Luis Valley are relatively cheap should tell you something. Land prices in the more scenic western end of the San Luis Valley (from about Monte Vista west) have gone nuts in the last 10 years--with the usual tacky "ranchette" and trophy house development taking over. Same to the south and east in Forbes Ranch. A HUGE ski area development has been proposed by a billionaire Texan up near the summit of Wolf Creek Pass (right next to the existing small family-owned area) that would pretty much trash that whole beautiful and wild area. I think that kind of crap is going to continue--right up to the point that our whole national BS economy tanks on scarce energy and choking debt. At that point, I don't think any "yuppie tourist" business is going to be worth a darn. If there is any bright side to that, it will be that--maybe--that will stop the rape of the Rocky Mountain West for the sole purpose of building people fancy places to goof off.

As to your question about Utah, I am not LDS and do think it could be and adjustment to live in one of rural Utah's nearly 100% Mormon towns, especially if one has school-age children. There is an ongoing discourse about that over on the Utah forum that I won't repeat here. One neat thing about Utah is that Utah still has a lot of "secret" places that they keep pretty much to themselves. Of course, the National Parks are heavily promoted and patronized, as are the many ski areas close to the Wasatch Front. But, away from those, Utahns tend to keep a lot of really nice country to themselves, and--from what I've seen--intend it to stay that way. Outside of the rapidly developing Wasatch Front, they also seem to place a high priority on maintaining agriculture, which I applaud. I like the whole Sanpete and Sevier Valley area, all the way from Mt. Pleasant to Richfield. I think the Cache Valley is beautiful (though the inversions in winter are bad). While I'm not especially fond of the town of Price, it is one of the least Mormon towns in Utah, and is close to some splendid, uncrowded country.

Sorry to hijack the thread about the San Luis Valley for a minute, but I thought that I should answer your question about Utah. One other thing about the SLV, since you brought it up in the Utah question--the SLV does have a fairly high percentage of LDS members in the Anglo population. A number of my San Luis Valley friends are LDS.

[michael11747]

ok so we have decided to buy this lot:







this lot apparently has water 80 feet deep, and a road to access it. i bought it on an auction for 16550 for 40 acres. being only 7 miles from alamosa, i think this is a great deal. anyone familiar with this area? i have been through it before and liked it, but have not seen this exact parcel. if it is as close to 160 as it seems, then i have seen it from the road. mike.

[winglady]

So, which of those 40 acre tracts did you buy? The northern two appear to have an intermittant stream running through them, which would be pretty cool.

You're a little further south than I had envisioned from your earlier posts. This spot loses some of the advantage of being significantly closer to the Dunes for lodging, but there is significantly more traffic along US 160 (about a mile from your property) than along US 150 that leads into the Park, so that might be a plus for some of your commercial plans.

Best of luck to you!

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by michael11747

ok so we have decided to buy this lot:







this lot apparently has water 80 feet deep, and a road to access it. i bought it on an auction for 16550 for 40 acres. being only 7 miles from alamosa, i think this is a great deal. anyone familiar with this area? i have been through it before and liked it, but have not seen this exact parcel. if it is as close to 160 as it seems, then i have seen it from the road. mike.

Referring back to one of my earlier posts, I see mostly greasewood in the photos. Also, from what I can ascertain from the photos, the wetland pictured in the has grasses consistent with alkaline water. I also rode by that area just last summer on the railroad just to the south of the subject parcels. What I saw riding along there would be consistent with what I just described. You should also check with the State Engineer's office about drilling a well. Chances are you will only be able to secure a domestic well permit, which only allows minimal, if any, well water to be used for irrigation. Since you purchased this parcel at auction, I also seriously doubt that any surface water rights were included. If that is the case, the surface water showing on the parcels won't be yours to use (legally), unless no one else has claimed it (not very likely in the SLV) and you file on it to perfect a right.

If you drill a well, and just want a house out away from everyone else (and there are people who live out in that area that want just that--I know a couple), then your parcel may be fine. But, the limitations on what you may be able to do with your well water will probably limit your use of that parcel to just that.

By the way, greasewood and alkalie and I go way back. Years ago, I was in ag on an operation surrounded by tens-of-thousands of acres of it. The old-line ranchers had a saying that "you couldn't raise hell on that land with a quart of whiskey."

[michael11747]

hmmm, well yes, we hope to just build a house on it for now, and maybe a barn for our business. what would you say these 40 acres are worth jazzlover? i have seen lots within a mile of here go for 50k for 40 acres, and i am assuming this is very over priced. an adjacent lot here went for 26000 at auction, and from what i can tell, that was considered a deal. if the water is alkaline, will i need a reverse osmosis system or anything like that? does alkaline mean hard water? what kind of trees would do well on this land? this lot is apparently a few hundred feet from the wildlife reserve.

and winglady, we are still waiting to hear about the northern parcel, the realtor has given the buyer until february 8th, and he seems as if he isn't interested in it anymore... i don't know what is going on with it. this parcel is more of a short term investment, which might help us purchase a lot closer to the dunes if we can't get the 40 acres i was originally looking at.

how is the real estate market there right now? is it as bad as the rest of the united states? it seems as if there is a lot of purchasing and selling going on in slv right now. i have been turned down twice already on lots, and maybe a 3rd. other people bought them up. just wondering. thanks guys! mike.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by michael11747

hmmm, well yes, we hope to just build a house on it for now, and maybe a barn for our business. what would you say these 40 acres are worth jazzlover? i have seen lots within a mile of here go for 50k for 40 acres, and i am assuming this is very over priced. an adjacent lot here went for 26000 at auction, and from what i can tell, that was considered a deal. if the water is alkaline, will i need a reverse osmosis system or anything like that? does alkaline mean hard water? what kind of trees would do well on this land? this lot is apparently a few hundred feet from the wildlife reserve.

and winglady, we are still waiting to hear about the northern parcel, the realtor has given the buyer until february 8th, and he seems as if he isn't interested in it anymore... i don't know what is going on with it. this parcel is more of a short term investment, which might help us purchase a lot closer to the dunes if we can't get the 40 acres i was originally looking at.

how is the real estate market there right now? is it as bad as the rest of the united states? it seems as if there is a lot of purchasing and selling going on in slv right now. i have been turned down twice already on lots, and maybe a 3rd. other people bought them up. just wondering. thanks guys! mike.

Without doing more research, I wouldn't stick my neck out on an estimate of value. I would guess the overall real estate market in the SLV may be a little slower to start declining than other areas of Colorado simply because it is not gone as crazy on the upside as many other areas did. I don't think it will escape the slide, though.

Well water in the SLV is generally of good quality, so you shouldn't have a problem with domestic water (though you may have to go more than 80' to get good quality--a local driller can tell you that). As to common trees in the SLV, probably the two most common--where there is sufficient water--are the narrowleaf cottonwood and peachleaf willow. They are both native to the area, and are fast growers. Both are water lovers, though. Russian Olives (I see some in one of the photos) are quite common, though not native--the pollen from them is allergenic to many people. They do grow well. Probably the worst non-native introduced into the region is the Tamarisk bush/tree (also called "saltcedar"). It chokes out native species and is a notorious water consumer. It especially likes alkaline areas. It is considered a "trash" plant, and many would like to see it eradicated.

In dry areas with good soil drainage native piñons and junipers do well, but are very slow growers. A 40-year old tree may only be 6' tall.

Most residential places out in that area are pretty treeless, even ones that have been there for quite a few years.

The local office of the CSU Extension Service should be able to help you.

[winglady]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

The local office of the CSU Extension Service should be able to help you.

Here's a link to get you started on learning about trees for Colorado:
Colorado State Extension Garden Publications Online (broken link)

That page will also give you links to other CSU Extension services.

BTW, I've been hearing from local forestry experts that the Russian Olive is also starting to be considered a "pest" tree for some of the same reasons as Tamarisk is, even though it isn't quite as bad a threat to the native species as Tamarisk.

[esya]

I just spent 3 days in Crestone and there are some water issues, just bec the area is wet does not mean you can use the water the way you need to. The valley has had several areas of drought and water ownership has its own laws around here, so ....consult a water lawyer if you have water specific plans.

I travel the valley quite a bit for work, I would really spend some time at the county assessor's office asking a lot of questions and getting some help from them before you make an offer.....

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by esya

I just spent 3 days in Crestone and there are some water issues, just bec the area is wet does not mean you can use the water the way you need to. The valley has had several areas of drought and water ownership has its own laws around here, so ....consult a water lawyer if you have water specific plans.

I travel the valley quite a bit for work, I would really spend some time at the county assessor's office asking a lot of questions and getting some help from them before you make an offer.....

That is very, very good advice.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Have you actually looked at these parcels? If not, you should. They are in some pretty godawful desolate spots. The floor of the San Luis Valley, in the parts with no irrigation, is not much more than scattered sagebrush and greasewood. You mention the property having water pooled on it in the spring. First, unless you have a decreed water right, that surface water isn't yours to use. Second, that water may be alkaline, and soil underying it similarly so. The presence of greasewood (locally called "chico brush") is a good indicator of soil alkalinity. The more greasewood as opposed to other plants, the more alkaline the soil. Of course, if the soil is too alkaline, there won't be any plants at all. There is plenty of alkaline soil around the San Luis Valley. A favorite resident of alkaline, swampy areas is the good ol' deerfly. They hit your skin biting--it can make it almost impossible to be outside when they are about.

Rich, adventurous yuppies like to talk about being out in the wild, but they like cushy guest ranches and resorts in spectacular settings, most likely not spots in a harsh, buggy, dusty, sagebrush flat. The San Luis Valley has not been especially popular in attracting tourists (that may be why it still has some character) because it is relatively isolated from urban areas, and there are much more "touristy" places that offer better experiences (Santa Fe, Taos, Durango, etc.). The tourist season there is effectively about 4 months long--making enough money in those four to last the other eight is a substantial challenge for even the most astute and well-capitalized businessperson.

I love the SLV, and there are some beautiful spots close to it, but the floor of the valley is best suited for agriculture where there is water, and best left empty where there isn't. Selling off small parcels of that desert scrub to out-of-staters--mostly sight unseen--has been a long-time near-scam down in that area for at least 40 years. The lack of much of anything being built on it should tell you something. Even some of the bigger and more prominent developments, resorts, etc. have been through numerous owners and several bankruptcies over the years.

I wish you luck, but you have picked a really rough row to hoe. The success rate for that sort of thing in the Valley has been pretty dismal.

Desolate is a good word. Here is a photo from this past week of what much of the land there looks like. I call it scrubby. This photo is taken between Mineral Hot Springs and Saguache, along Hwy 285, in the upper reaches of the San Luis Valley, but it looks just like this all the way down to Alamosa and Blanco, etc. Just south of this photo we began to see much farming with lots of rotating arm sprinklers; what seemed a rather prosperous looking farm economy all the way down to Monte Vista, where there were potato warehouses along the way and a Coors Brewery grain silo in Monte Vista. Over towards Del Norte it started to get nicer looking as we headed up past Del Norte Peak (12,400) and over Wolf Creek Pass (pic added for that too, from the west slope of Wolf Creek Pass at the scenic overlook). There is a wild difference between the two areas as far as how they look.

s/Mike


Northern reaches of the San Luis Valley on Hwy 285.


West Slope of Wolf Creek Pass on Hwy 160