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Old 09-21-2015, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Washington Park, Denver
6,896 posts, read 6,484,940 times
Reputation: 7347

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumline View Post
Sounds like a schlock partisan "study" to me. Lots of correlation is identified, but no causal links established. If spending decreased on schools and infrastructure, where did all the money go? That's not TABOR's fault, that's the legislature's fault for reallocating the money to (probably) pork-barrel spending.

Colorado has no shortage of state and local tax revenue. Historically it's had about 10% less per-capita than the national average and almost exactly on the nationwide median. These figures did not deviate appreciably during the years that TABOR was suspended. Federal State Local Government Tax Revenue in United States for 2015 - Charts Tables

It seems to me that if you're not happy with how things like schools and infrastructure have been funded, blaming TABOR is not helpful; people need to start looking at where the money is actually going.
Well, the state is running a budget deficit and you and I are about to get $18 checks in the mail solely because of TABOR. It's a horrible piece of legislation.
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Old 09-21-2015, 08:50 PM
 
Location: The Berk in Denver, CO USA
13,938 posts, read 20,166,947 times
Reputation: 22539
Default "free" food

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDog77 View Post
are about to get $18 checks
Which equals 3 beers.
I am all about the beer.
If I pay attention that will cover the tax and tip also.
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:17 AM
 
92 posts, read 75,464 times
Reputation: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDog77 View Post
Well, the state is running a budget deficit and you and I are about to get $18 checks in the mail solely because of TABOR. It's a horrible piece of legislation.
Perhaps the state should work on balancing their budget?

There won't be any agreement on this issue, as some people feel that if government isn't growing/expanding/providing more services than it is failing. There are another group of people that feel the opposite.
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Old 09-22-2015, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Washington Park, Denver
6,896 posts, read 6,484,940 times
Reputation: 7347
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkbill View Post
Perhaps the state should work on balancing their budget?

There won't be any agreement on this issue, as some people feel that if government isn't growing/expanding/providing more services than it is failing. There are another group of people that feel the opposite.
I don't disagree that the state should balance its budget, however the whole concept of TABOR was predicated on the idea that it would force the state to balance its budget. Clearly that is not working. What we are left with is an ideological piece of legislation that is not having its own intended consequences. Give me pragmatism any day over this garbage and keep my $18. I'll even buy Dave 3 beers.
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:23 PM
 
Location: CO/UT/AZ/NM Catch me if you can!
4,697 posts, read 4,323,951 times
Reputation: 10277
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumline View Post
Sounds like a schlock partisan "study" to me. Lots of correlation is identified, but no causal links established. If spending decreased on schools and infrastructure, where did all the money go? That's not TABOR's fault, that's the legislature's fault for reallocating the money to (probably) pork-barrel spending.

Colorado has no shortage of state and local tax revenue. Historically it's had about 10% less per-capita than the national average and almost exactly on the nationwide median. These figures did not deviate appreciably during the years that TABOR was suspended. It seems to me that if you're not happy with how things like schools and infrastructure have been funded, blaming TABOR is not helpful; people need to start looking at where the money is actually going.Federal State Local Government Tax Revenue in United States for 2015 - Charts Tables
Well, you should know about "schlock partisan studies." The link you gave was part of ultra-conervative Christopher Chantrill's blog-site - filled with all sorts of schlock. In his official looking blog, he makes all sorts of amazing statements, few of which have anything to do with the facts. Indeed, when the facts become to cumbersome, Chantrill disregards them, and even leaves large blanks in his graphs which he labels 'GUESSTIMATED," or "INTERPOLATED." Small wonder he does this, since most of his conclusions seem to be drawn from numbers that were valid only through 1970; and in some cases, as far back as 1945. He seems to want his readers' to use only those stats which are almost 50 years old. And stats from which he has removed the past 150 years of data are better yet. What? Did your surmise that Coloradans have been so poorly educated thanks to TABOR, that no one would be able to follow your link and then read it?
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Old 09-28-2015, 03:31 PM
 
387 posts, read 271,140 times
Reputation: 697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
What? Did your surmise that Coloradans have been so poorly educated thanks to TABOR, that no one would be able to follow your link and then read it?
Yes, I am so arrogant and didn't think dumb Coloradans would catch me in trying to pull the wool over their eyes. (Note for the slow: that was sarcasm) Seriously?? What is your problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
Indeed, when the facts become to cumbersome, Chantrill disregards them, and even leaves large blanks in his graphs which he labels 'GUESSTIMATED," or "INTERPOLATED."
If you bothered to read the "smoking gun" that you linked to, you will see that the "guesstimated" and "interpolated" time periods are 2015-2020, which is, like, in the future & such; 2013-2014, for which state and local data is not yet available; and 1891-1951, which is outside the scope of what I was talking about anyway. Oooh, that vast right wing conspiracy strikes again, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Rambler View Post
most of his [Christopher Chantrill's] conclusions seem to be drawn from numbers that were valid only through 1970; and in some cases, as far back as 1945. He seems to want his readers' to use only those stats which are almost 50 years old.
I've never read his blog before and I had no idea who he is until you brought it up. I simply analyzed the data I looked up myself on the site I linked to. I don't want to be operating off of skewed partisan data, so if you have a better, more reliable source of historical state and local government tax revenues, please post a link to it. (I'm not being flippant, I really want to know.)
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Old 09-29-2015, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Edgewater, CO
531 posts, read 911,499 times
Reputation: 642
Hiking up near Kenosha Pass a weekend ago, my opinion of the state's future is that it will be littered with trash from all the tourists who don't give a crap.
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Old 09-29-2015, 11:40 AM
 
Location: lakewood
572 posts, read 396,481 times
Reputation: 309
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDog77 View Post
I'll even buy Dave 3 beers.
I'm a dave too!
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Old 09-29-2015, 09:29 PM
 
16,499 posts, read 20,890,596 times
Reputation: 47842
Quote:
Originally Posted by TechMike View Post
Hiking up near Kenosha Pass a weekend ago, my opinion of the state's future is that it will be littered with trash from all the tourists who don't give a crap.
I'm familiar with trash in the high country. My first construction work was as a USFS road crew laborer in 1968 in the Durango/Dolores area. When our crew got our road work done on Friday afternoon at times we would go past several USFS campgrounds and clean up the messes left by tourists in the Summer and hunters in the Fall. Food cans, beer cans, whiskey bottles, food wrappers, etc., etc. would always be left behind to be bagged and hauled off by USFS employees.

Not long ago on youtube I spotted the commercial of the Native American who had a tear in his eye as he saw someone in a passing car throw trash out the window. I thought about the quoted post TechMike made here as I was viewing.

Fast forward to 2014. And social media, in this case youtube and twitter. About a year ago at this time two guys with regular common names (Glen Taylor and David Hall) went to one of the Utah State parks and defaced Balanced Rock. The state park was about a couple hours from Salt Lake City. And like fools they put a video on it on youtube with these two flexing their muscles and laughing. Well, they were hauled off to court shortly after that stunt. And these guys were Boy Scout leaders for crying out loud. After pleading guilty to the charges and being fined, at least they showed a little remorse, simply stating "it was a stupid thing to do."

Which is more than I can say about Casey Nockett, a 21 year old self proclaimed artist from the east coast. About that same time she was going around to nearly a dozen national parks and monuments (including Colorado) and painting faces, flags, slogans, etc., etc. on the canyon walls in Utah, on the trees at Yosemite, etc., etc. And she was using acrylic paint, which is pretty damn hard to remove. And not only did she not show remorse, she stood up and said she was proud as pie for what she did. Her response to the media? "It's art, not vandalism. I am an artist!"

I know several BLM employees, a few of them are fire fighters. The stuff they tell me regarding this type of activity,, well, there's more that doesn't hit the papers or the internet. Much more.

Granted, these are only two incidents. But there are a boatload of people out there with this sort of mind set. In their view it's their inherent right to do whatever the hell they like without consequence. In the years ahead, these type instances will only get worse. I hope that I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. Time will tell.

Last edited by DOUBLE H; 09-30-2015 at 10:06 AM.. Reason: addition, spelling
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Old 10-01-2015, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Edgewater, CO
531 posts, read 911,499 times
Reputation: 642
Thanks DOUBLE H. I'm sure trash in the wilderness is not a recent phenomenon, but it always really grinds my gears. I plan to teach both my children the concepts of "leave no trace." I want my children's children to be able to enjoy mother nature.
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