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Old 10-05-2016, 06:18 PM
 
147 posts, read 187,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asusual View Post
..... Many of these are in nations with a better standard of living than we have per capita, such as Denmark or Finland....
They also do not have court/jury awarded malpractice systems that screw patients, doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical developers/manufacturers. I wonder if there is a connection? Any issues are settled by arbitration, and are a fraction of what US malpractice awards are. And without the legal costs.

 
Old 10-09-2016, 11:06 PM
 
93 posts, read 53,152 times
Reputation: 92
"2/3 of it will be directly on the backs of employers.

Private insurance is still a choice, we can still go without and have Obamacare fine us. Private insurance is a complete joke with little way out, and frankly more Americans should be throwing a bigger fit about it."

I fully agree with Private insurance being a complete joke "with little way out." I have never heard it phrased this way, but you're right on with it I also cannot understand why Americans are not "throwing a bigger fit about it."

As for the 2/3 being directly on the backs, isn't that the way it is now with private insurance? What ColoradoCare will be, though, is a much lighter 2/3's than private insurance. Also, ColoradoCare will not do things like penalize companies, especially small businesses, for a sick person on their insurance rolls, by charging higher rates for that sick person.
 
Old 10-09-2016, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
13,227 posts, read 24,316,643 times
Reputation: 12943
Quote:
Originally Posted by asusual View Post
"2/3 of it will be directly on the backs of employers.

Private insurance is still a choice, we can still go without and have Obamacare fine us. Private insurance is a complete joke with little way out, and frankly more Americans should be throwing a bigger fit about it."

I fully agree with Private insurance being a complete joke "with little way out." I have never heard it phrased this way, but you're right on with it I also cannot understand why Americans are not "throwing a bigger fit about it."

As for the 2/3 being directly on the backs, isn't that the way it is now with private insurance? What ColoradoCare will be, though, is a much lighter 2/3's than private insurance. Also, ColoradoCare will not do things like penalize companies, especially small businesses, for a sick person on their insurance rolls, by charging higher rates for that sick person.
Yeah, but there are also plenty of small business employers that are exempt from providing their employees' health care.
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Old 10-10-2016, 02:58 PM
 
147 posts, read 187,643 times
Reputation: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by asusual View Post
... Also, ColoradoCare will not do things like penalize companies, especially small businesses, for a sick person on their insurance rolls, by charging higher rates for that sick person.
This is already against the HIPAA laws, and has been for 20 years. There have been a few changes to HIPAA over the years, especially regarding exemptions, but one thing has remained constant. Once covered, employers can not charge employees a higher rate if they have pre-existing conditions.

Most of us have Medicare, Medicaid, or an employer plan and were quite happy with them. The big debate has been what to do with the 10 % of the population that did not have coverage. In order to cover them, various plans from Hillary Care to Obama Care to Romney Care to Oregon Care to Colorado Care, etc., have all revolved around those 10%. Those of us opposed have simply been concerned that our health care plans would get destroyed and/or become unaffordable. 6 years into Obama Care, case closed. Costs are skyrocketing, benefits are plummeting, for ALL of us. Once again, instead of just fixing the flat tire, we have ripped out the drivetrain for a complete re-build. Thanks to all of you who have supported this with your complete lack of understanding what is really involved.

Last edited by freewest; 10-10-2016 at 03:13 PM..
 
Old 10-12-2016, 01:34 AM
 
93 posts, read 53,152 times
Reputation: 92
"They also do not have court/jury awarded malpractice systems that screw patients, doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceutical developers/manufacturers."

I know someone who had an operation that screwed up and permanently disabled her. Without this "court/jury" system you say we have, she would be living in homeless shelters. Yet, I also had an uncle, long deceased now, a doctor who quit practice because of the frivolous lawsuits. What those systems have is a better balance and, if a patient, does suffer a medical screw-up, they also have better systems in place to help them. Here, you're on your own. If you survive, that's well and good; if not, well, so what. Hence the legal system.

Also, if we did not have it, would costs really go down so that those 10% be able to afford health insurance that might actually cover them? I doubt it.

"Most of us have Medicare, Medicaid, or an employer plan and were quite happy with them."

I would be curious how many employees are happy being forced into health care plans because it is all that their employer has to offer and this plan has a $5,000 deductible that makes the plan all but useless. I faced one of those as an employee.

"Thanks to all of you who have supported this with your complete lack of understanding what is really involved."

Please tell me what is "really involved," and how it is that I have a lack of understanding of it.
 
Old 10-12-2016, 09:18 PM
 
147 posts, read 187,643 times
Reputation: 291
A few years ago, my employer plan cost less than half of what is is now, with a small deductable of $200 and no copays. Has inflation been over 100% in a few years? Yes, many of us were very happy with those plans. Now the deductable is $4000, copays are 20% after deductable. You cannot expand public spending on health care by over 13% a year, as the Affordable Care Act (ACA) has done, and reduce costs at the same time. Those 2 concepts are in conflict.

80% of people getting insurance through the Obama Care exchanges are getting their costs subsidized by the taxpayer, so it is not "private" insurance. It is using taxpayer money to buy insurance. That makes it "public" insurance.

If a public health care patient incurs a $1000 cost and the gov't only pays $200, the insurer loses money. They cannot stay in business that way, so they pass off as much of it as they can to other plans. This is 3rd grade arithmetic. We already had problems with Medicare doing exactly that, such that many doctors stopped accepting Medicare patients. Now we have ObamaCare which multiplies that 10 fold.

The government mandates premiums. Insurers must get gov't permission to raise rates. Price controls do not allow insurers to find the most efficient use of money. Competition does.

An aging population is seeking more and more health care. More consumption of anything causes costs to rise.

If we had a single payer system, you seem to think that our paychecks would be larger. This is the ultimate fallacy. If an employer no longer has to pay $1000 a month for your insurance and gives that money to you, and we move to a single payer system, your taxes are going to go up substantially (you know, like Europe) in order to pay for it. So you will have a smaller net paycheck, not a larger one.

There are a dozen other reasons why costs are rising at many fold the rate of inflation. Every gov't intervention has only made things worse. Again, I think there is a connection here.

Last edited by freewest; 10-12-2016 at 09:34 PM..
 
Old 10-12-2016, 09:26 PM
 
147 posts, read 187,643 times
Reputation: 291
I remember some years ago, some psuedo-intellectual opined that if we would just tax every dollar of income over $200k at a rate of 100%, we could pay off the deficit and have revenue surpluses for decades to come.

I think one those 3rd graders had to point out that if we taxed every dollar over $200k at 100%, it would generate $0 additional revenues, and the deficits would skyrocket. This is because no one would work beyond $200k. When Suzi rich gal made her $200k by March 3rd, she would go on vacation the rest of the year. Who in their right mind would continue working if every dollar earned from March 4th on would be confiscated? The thought processes of "gov't can save us all" is just mind boggling.
 
Old 10-13-2016, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,886 posts, read 102,281,764 times
Reputation: 32946
Quote:
Originally Posted by caverunner17 View Post
A flat 10% tax would probably benefit the employee / employer for the majority of the employees, except at the director, VP and exec levels.
But would it be enough? That is one of my big concerns with Colorado Care-I don't think they're asking for enough money. A few months, maybe years into it, they'll be running out of money, and then be faced with either going back to the voters for yet more money, or coming up with some other solution, maybe like that awful public/private solution on road building, or just scrapping the whole thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asusual View Post

"Most of us have Medicare, Medicaid, or an employer plan and were quite happy with them."

I would be curious how many employees are happy being forced into health care plans because it is all that their employer has to offer and this plan has a $5,000 deductible that makes the plan all but useless. I faced one of those as an employee.
That was your only choice? I find that surprising.
 
Old 10-13-2016, 08:42 AM
 
1,246 posts, read 919,200 times
Reputation: 1433
Quote:
Originally Posted by freewest View Post
A few years ago, my employer plan cost less than half of what is is now, with a small deductable of $200 and no copays. Has inflation been over 100% in a few years? Yes, many of us were very happy with those plans. Now the deductable is $4000, copays are 20% after deductable. You cannot expand public spending on health care by over 13% a year, as the Affordable Care Act (ACA) has done, and reduce costs at the same time. Those 2 concepts are in conflict.

80% of people getting insurance through the Obama Care exchanges are getting their costs subsidized by the taxpayer, so it is not "private" insurance. It is using taxpayer money to buy insurance. That makes it "public" insurance.

If a public health care patient incurs a $1000 cost and the gov't only pays $200, the insurer loses money. They cannot stay in business that way, so they pass off as much of it as they can to other plans. This is 3rd grade arithmetic. We already had problems with Medicare doing exactly that, such that many doctors stopped accepting Medicare patients. Now we have ObamaCare which multiplies that 10 fold.

The government mandates premiums. Insurers must get gov't permission to raise rates. Price controls do not allow insurers to find the most efficient use of money. Competition does.

An aging population is seeking more and more health care. More consumption of anything causes costs to rise.

If we had a single payer system, you seem to think that our paychecks would be larger. This is the ultimate fallacy. If an employer no longer has to pay $1000 a month for your insurance and gives that money to you, and we move to a single payer system, your taxes are going to go up substantially (you know, like Europe) in order to pay for it. So you will have a smaller net paycheck, not a larger one.

There are a dozen other reasons why costs are rising at many fold the rate of inflation. Every gov't intervention has only made things worse. Again, I think there is a connection here.
If you travel to Europe or even Canada you will learn this very quickly. Everything has a tax to pay for healthcare and all the other social programs. Most of it goes to health care. Most Euro nations are around 40% tax rate for the people. Yeah health care is "free" but then look at all goods and services. A 6 pack of beer in Canada is $10+. You either pay for it directly or indirectly. Yeah Europe is nice to visit but you can't get ahead there. Salaries are not as high as they are here and the COL is much much higher. If you dont want a car and be dependent on public transportation, have a caste education system so you might get a free education, pay 0 out of pocket for health care and rely on the US for national defense, then yeah its great.
 
Old 10-17-2016, 12:35 AM
 
93 posts, read 53,152 times
Reputation: 92
Do you really believe what you are typing? Do you really believe that a business will say "hey lets move to Colorado and pay an automatic 6.67% payroll tax for all employees because we don't like being fleeced by the big bad insurance companies"?

How much are businesses paying now? Most businesses that do cover their employees pay a lot more than ten percent. How many Human Resources departments in these companies have to spend their time shopping around for health insurance because the one they had raised their premiums again? How many small businesses have had to drop their insurance because an employee got sick and had to use the insurance so the insurers raised their rates and the owner/owners cannot afford health insurance for themselves? And when you talk about businesses moving here because they really "do not like being fleeced by the big bad insurance companies," you also forget how many home grown businesses will start popping up as ColoradoCare frees would-be entrepreneurs from job lock because they are scared of losing their health insurance (that is if they have it)?


https://www.zanebenefits.com/blog/wh...d-by-employers

How much will school districts save, for example, or municipalities? I forget the number now and do not have time to go chasing it down, but ColoradoCare did a study on it and it is at least 10-20%.


"For the employee, the HUGE benefit is actually using your insurance."

Thank you for saying this. You're so right. This is so often forgotten in all the noise about percents. No one seems to care about the employees. With insurance companies shifting costs onto customers with high deductibles, the employee is going into debt if they have to use the insurance for a medical need. It's easy to rack up these bills too. To walk through the door in a hospital emergency room can cost a $1,000. I once had a deductible of $5,000 in addition to the premium -- it was the company's only policy -- and finally told the HR director to drop me because there was no point in it. Thanks again for bringing this up.
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