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Old 10-29-2016, 09:12 AM
 
28 posts, read 31,295 times
Reputation: 95

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If this law passes we will become the highest taxed state in the nation. Please tell me, if this law is not solvent in the future what safeguards are put in place to prevent my taxes going up even further?

A simple question you have previously failed to answer.

 
Old 10-29-2016, 10:40 AM
 
1,059 posts, read 1,635,241 times
Reputation: 1928
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkms View Post
There is a reason America became the greatest nation the world has ever seen, its called Capitalism (not democracy like the media would have you believe).
And it's because of capitalism that the US has the worst health system outcomes among the countries of the western world. Profits before people. No other health care system causes medical bankruptcy like our system does. Health care should be not for profit....period. That's why other countries do so much better.

 
Old 10-29-2016, 10:57 AM
 
28 posts, read 31,295 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post
And it's because of capitalism that the US has the worst health system outcomes among the countries of the western world. Profits before people. No other health care system causes medical bankruptcy like our system does. Health care should be not for profit....period. That's why other countries do so much better.

What part of health care should be non profit? The Dr who spent 12+ years in college? The insurance companies who assume all the risk for 1-2% profit margins? The hospitals? Please elaborate.

If our health system is among the worst then how come people come from all over the world to receive care here? (Yes I know, you did say outcome)

I would challenge you that a majority of medical bankruptcy's are due to the choices they made. Almost 50% of employers offer health insurance. Those who file medical bankruptcy had a choice. They had a choice to chose an employer who offered health insurance. They had a choice to either have the new Iphone 7, Lincoln MKX or have health insurance.

I can agree with you, there are changes that need to be made to our health care system but government intervention on the grand scale it has become, is not the solution. Obamacare is a disaster. The VA is just a glimpse of what state run health care looks like. The government can't even get out of its own way. Look how broken Washington is and you really want to give the Government more control over how to live your life?
 
Old 10-29-2016, 11:04 AM
 
28 posts, read 31,295 times
Reputation: 95
Again, to all those in favor of this amendment, I challenge you to answer this question:

As a tax paying citizen and this proposal being the largest state tax increase in US history; what assurances do I have that A, this program will be solvent and B, if it is not solvent what protections do I have that my taxes will not be raised and the quality of care will not go down?
 
Old 10-29-2016, 11:48 AM
 
147 posts, read 187,697 times
Reputation: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkms View Post
... They had a choice to chose an employer who offered health insurance. They had a choice to either have the new Iphone 7, Lincoln MKX or have health insurance.
Nailed it. Everyone wants all these individual liberties to run their own lives. But they do not want to take personal responsibility for their lives. Like choosing between health insurance and that really cool new Iphone or a fancy car. Those of us who have made the decision to take care of our NEEDS FIRST, then pursue of our WANTS SECOND, are simply tired of our tax money being used to take of the rest of you who bought the nice car first, and are crying for the rest of us to pay for your health care. We in the middle class already pay nearly 50% of our income in total taxes. That's enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asusual View Post
...Excellent point and thanks for making it. When I was terribly sick some years ago, I remember that all medical decisions had to go through the medical director of the private insurance company. It was they who determined what treatments you could or could not get, and the socialized rule they followed was the bottom line.
So having all medical decisions go through a government bureaucrat is going to be better? You think the government "socialized" rule is going to be different than "be cheap"? Where have you been living? The government has a bottom line too. Just ask anyone on Medicare or in the VA system. And let's not forget the NON-PROFIT Obamacare co-ops. They are a living example of socialized health care. They started with government money, almost 3 billion dollars. All rules were dictated by the government, but run by private entities. So not technically goverenment insurance, but for all practical purposes, government insurance. Only 7 are left and they are losing massive amounts of OUR money. They are expected to close by end of 2017. Those loans will never be paid back. The architects of Obamacare thought they could centrally plan the private insurance market and health providers. It failed. So will ColoradoCare.
 
Old 10-29-2016, 05:14 PM
 
Location: The analog world
17,087 posts, read 9,804,931 times
Reputation: 22736
Will not be voting for it.
 
Old 10-29-2016, 08:47 PM
 
1,059 posts, read 1,635,241 times
Reputation: 1928
Quote:
Originally Posted by djkms View Post
What part of health care should be non profit? The Dr who spent 12+ years in college? The insurance companies who assume all the risk for 1-2% profit margins? The hospitals? Please elaborate.
Doctors in other countries go to school for 12 years as well. What's your point? They're still high income professionals, respected for their knowledge & skills. The hospitals, big pharma, & insurance companies started it all. Once hospitals & big pharma realized they could charge insurance companies whatever they wanted, and it would be paid. It escalated in a vicious cycle from there until now, where we have long established drugs that are marked up from $800 to $80K for a course of treatment. Remember the Epipen debacle? It's unbridled capitalism that places obscene profits ahead of patient's health & outcomes. Have you seen what the salaries are for the health insurance company CEO's?

Healthcare And Pharma CEOs Paid More Than Top Execs In Any Other Industry, Analysis Finds


Quote:
Originally Posted by djkms View Post
If our health system is among the worst then how come people come from all over the world to receive care here? (Yes I know, you did say outcome)
People from all over (including the US) travel to other parts of the world for medical care. This is not exclusive to the US as you seem to imply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by djkms View Post
I would challenge you that a majority of medical bankruptcy's are due to the choices they made. Almost 50% of employers offer health insurance. Those who file medical bankruptcy had a choice. They had a choice to chose an employer who offered health insurance. They had a choice to either have the new Iphone 7, Lincoln MKX or have health insurance.
That's nonsense. We are a country of 300M+ people. How many people work for the 50%+ of employers that DON'T provide health insurance? Most medical bankruptcies are caused by amounts far in excess of the cost of a new Lincoln or iPhone . Hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. You truly don't understand the cost of being seriously ill in the US. You've fallen into the narrative that all ill that befalls people is their own fault. Yep, if only they had chosen that round of chemo over a new car, they'd be better off. The US is the ONLY country in the world where becoming seriously ill brings with it, a threat of medical bankruptcy. In the current economy, do you seriously believe that everybody has the choice of employment with health coverage? I mean, who wouldn't take that? How would the non-providing employers be able to hire anybody? Do you understand the concept of getting any job you can to get money coming in to your household?


Quote:
Originally Posted by djkms View Post
I can agree with you, there are changes that need to be made to our health care system but government intervention on the grand scale it has become, is not the solution. Obamacare is a disaster. The VA is just a glimpse of what state run health care looks like. The government can't even get out of its own way. Look how broken Washington is and you really want to give the Government more control over how to live your life?
Nobody is asking for government run health care. That's something that the right constantly screams about in their "repeal Obamacare at any cost but we don't have anything to replace it with" rant. Never mind having 20 million Americans lose their health coverage in the process. We don't have government run health care now other than the VA, and that's only for veterans. That system needs vast improvement as well, but at least veterans aren't bankrupted by it.

The only thing that will ultimately address the issue of affordability is some form of single payer health care. It works around the world yet in the US we cling to the current system falsely claiming that it's the best in the world while the cost of care rises further & further.
 
Old 10-29-2016, 09:50 PM
 
28 posts, read 31,295 times
Reputation: 95
Thanks for taking the time to reply. Good conversation from opposite sides can be healthy

Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post
Doctors in other countries go to school for 12 years as well. What's your point? They're still high income professionals, respected for their knowledge & skills. The hospitals, big pharma, & insurance companies started it all. Once hospitals & big pharma realized they could charge insurance companies whatever they wanted, and it would be paid. It escalated in a vicious cycle from there until now, where we have long established drugs that are marked up from $800 to $80K for a course of treatment. Remember the Epipen debacle? It's unbridled capitalism that places obscene profits ahead of patient's health & outcomes.


I agree with everything you typed and it further proves some of my previous points. Obamacare regulated the wrong industry. Insurance companies pay what they are required to pay. The real problem is drug companies charging whatever they want along with hospitals. Obamcare did nothing to address this issue. Same thing with A69 - it does nothing to address this issue nor does 1 state really have the clout to change nationwide industries (big pharma and hospitals)


Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post
Have you seen what the salaries are for the health insurance company CEO's?

Must be blind, I didnt see any health insurance CEO's in that list, just pharma companies and UHS. I will ask though since you brought up CEO's pay. What is a fair salary in your opinion for a CEO of a multi billion dollar company? If you were a CEO of a multi billion dollar company how much would you want to be compensated? Looking at pure numbers how much of an impact does the CEO's salary directly impact the cost of the product or service provided? I truly don't know and I am hoping you might have better insight to that question since you brought it up?



Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post
People from all over (including the US) travel to other parts of the world for medical care. This is not exclusive to the US as you seem to imply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post

Never said it was exclusive to the US but that fact remains, the actual care and quality of Doctors in the USA is pretty hard to beat. Technology wise we are also hard to beat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post
That's nonsense. We are a country of 300M+ people. How many people work for the 50%+ of employers that DON'T provide health insurance? Most medical bankruptcies are caused by amounts far in excess of the cost of a new Lincoln or iPhone . Hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. You truly don't understand the cost of being seriously ill in the US. You've fallen into the narrative that all ill that befalls people is their own fault. Yep, if only they had chosen that round of chemo over a new car, they'd be better off. The US is the ONLY country in the world where becoming seriously ill brings with it, a threat of medical bankruptcy. In the current economy, do you seriously believe that everybody has the choice of employment with health coverage? I mean, who wouldn't take that? How would the non-providing employers be able to hire anybody? Do you understand the concept of getting any job you can to get money coming in to your household?

See, you didnt understand my post. Its about CHOICE. The choices you make in life will always have outcomes and/or consequences. You are employed by the your employer ultimately because of your own free will. If someone takes the first job they can and they dont offer insurance, just to put food on the table, I get it. It still doesnt negate the fact that they chose the employer. Yes the choice was to go without health insurance to meet an immediate need but it was still your choice. Did that person chose that job because thats what they felt comfortable doing? Did that person chose that job because it met their financial needs for their current lifestyle? My point is current lifestyle is a want not a need. If you're so concerned about coverage for yourself that set wants aside and maybe accept a job that you may not want but will provide for your needs. Probably less paying, probably not as glamorous but at least YOU are striving to provide your needs/wants instead of the government forcing their ideals on you.

btw your scenario (chemo) is after the fact. No coverage during/after an incident. What I am saying is make better decisions before there is a problem so you can better deal with problems should they arise. Again, need>want.

I'm not saying that people are chosing Iphones over Chemo as you suggested, I'm saying peoples standard of living (want) has taken priority over their needs and because of that choice we should bail them out?

I never said falling ill is the fault of the individual but not having coverage is. Its out there. If you refuse to work for an employer who offers it, your fault. If you refuse to lower your standard of living so you can afford coverage on your own, your fault. Even the less fortunate in our county are given coverage through Medicaid. This was around pre ACA. Those with pre existing conditions could get coverage pre ACA through group plans. My point is, nothing is stopping anyone from getting coverage anywhere in the USA, its all a matter of what is important to you and what you are willing to do to get it or what you are willing to give up to get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post
Nobody is asking for government run health care. That's something that the right constantly screams about in their "repeal Obamacare at any cost but we don't have anything to replace it with" rant. Never mind having 20 million Americans lose their health coverage in the process. We don't have government run health care now other than the VA, and that's only for veterans. That system needs vast improvement as well, but at least veterans aren't bankrupted by it.

You're right, they aren't bankrupt by it they just die waiting to see someone!!!

If single payer isn't government run health care then who's running it? Have you read A69?
Quote:
Amendment 69 would create a 15-member interim Board of Trustees appointed by the Colorado Governor and legislative leaders.

Sounds like government ran to me. Then the public gets to vote the board in? Who will these people be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DurangoJoe View Post
The only thing that will ultimately address the issue of affordability is some form of single payer health care. It works around the world yet in the US we cling to the current system falsely claiming that it's the best in the world while the cost of care rises further & further.
Again - the core cost of healthcare is not regulated enough. I think a good start is hospitals and big pharma.

I ask again - how can I be assured as a middle class tax paying citizen that this tax will not increase nor coverage decline should this bill become insolvent?

No one is even talking about the "free" health care to all the illegal immigrants in this state. What if this state gets flooded with even 1,000,000 of the 12,000,000 illegals here. Who's going to pay for them? Should our taxes increase to pay for people illegally here? I guarantee there is not enough illegals paying taxes to offset that.

Noble idea, very poor execution.
 
Old 10-30-2016, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Eastern Colorado
3,768 posts, read 4,620,844 times
Reputation: 4893
You know back before Obama care Colorado had one of the best insurance systems in the country for healthcare. We had solid group plans that were considered expensive by some but were considerably better than the obamacare plans both for cost and coverage, we had guaranteed coverage under the group of 1 laws which meant you could get a reasonable coverage with preexisting conditions if you were self employed. We had the free market where you could get decent priced coverage under individual plans, also much better and cheaper than Obamacare. You still had medicaid, medicare, and Child health plan plus which were all good federal subsidized plans if you qualified, and they had Cover Colorado which was a state subsidized plan available to those who could not qualify for the federal subsidized plans but had bad preexisting conditions. All were cheaper than the plans we all can get now, and all covered a lot more with much less out of pocket than the plans today. If you wanted insurance you could get it in Colorado and it was not that expensive.

When the feds decided to change healthcare I was hoping they were looking at state's that had reasonable coverage that worked for the state. They never looked at Colorado as it must have been too complicated or worked to well, as I am convinced they wanted it to fail to put in a single payer system. I just do not see people screaming for a single payer system even now with the huge failure that is Obamacare.

Another thing that has to be mentioned is that a lot of medical bankruptcies in Colorado had more to do with no income and lack of savings than they did with lack of insurance options in the marketplace. If someone had to be hospitalized for a month and did not have short term disability than they used what money they had to cover their household bills and ignored the medical bills, until they got to the point where it was bankruptcy or they lose everything. Often a handful of medical bills were used to say that it was a medical bankruptcy, and it was caused by medical issues, but the biggest issue was lack of income while dealing with the medical issues and not the actual medical bills. The government and propaganda machines will never admit to it, but lack of health insurance options was usually not the biggest problem leading people to bankruptcy.

As others have said there have long been people making enough to afford insurance, I know many families that made 6 figures, drove $50,000+ vehicles, owned $400,000 homes, but never bothered to get health insurance as they figured they were in good health. In fact when I last did taxes over a year ago many of these same people still do not have health insurance. That is their choice, and they should have to face the consequences of their actions, if they get sick than why should taxpayers bail them out? Why should they be rewarded for being irresponsible?
 
Old 10-30-2016, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,068 posts, read 1,448,688 times
Reputation: 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwiley View Post
if they get sick than why should taxpayers bail them out? Why should they be rewarded for being irresponsible?
If your house catches fire and the fire dept puts it out, why should taxpayers bail YOU out? For every excuse someone gives against public insurance, I can give one for:


Traffic accident
Sudden illness
Genetic disease
Workplace injury

It's called ESSENTIAL SERVICES. Healthcare is an essential service in every modern democracy except yours. Stop being so thickheaded.
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