Magnesium Chloride & Your Environment (Estes Park: rent, lease, hospital)

[ryanek9freak]

well yeah, i guess for airplanes it's a neccessity

[Todd TCE]

The use of Mag Chloride on dirt roads has been touted as dust control as it appears to keep dirt more compact and in place. I'm no scientist but it does appear to help.

From a race car owners perspective however I have to agree with Ryan a bit here...(no I'm not going to open up this nightmare thing again) it's extremely difficult to wash off a car. Try as I may every year at a car wash it adheres to the race car quite well and leaves a fine film on it thats hard to get off. When exposed to aluminized exhaust headers it also turns them colors and leaves spots that do not come off very easy.

Is it good? Is it bad? I don't know...but it does stick to things. And that may be part of the reason for the tree loss; lack of air to the needles/leaves as they are covered in the stuff. I don't think I'd want to breath it for a long time.

[Idunn]

"This distinction is important because rainfall on transportation surfaces drains directly to a stream or stormwater collection system that discharges to a waterbody usually without treatment..."
NRDC: Stormwater Strategies - Chapter 2

This site concerned with effects of runoff from a variety of sources, the impact important because no intermediary filtering, such as in city sewer systems.

Also note that while Glycol might prove useful in certain applications that it is also toxic. This from the same reference:
"Airports de-ice runways and planes, usually with glycol mixtures that can be both toxic to fish, wildlife, and humans and exert high BOD on receiving streams."

And, yes, many current agricultural practices are destructive:
"Agricultural water pollution can have variety of negative effects. Not only do substantial environmental problems result, but many of the pollutants produced by farms (minerals, chemicals and pathogens, to name a few) can make water unsafe for human consumption."
Sustainable Table: The Issues: Water Pollution

According to the EPA 39% of US rivers and streams are "impaired for one or more uses." This referenced from their 'Water Quality Assessments' pdf. This can be referenced from the first Source Reference given at this site:
Sustainable Table: The Issues: Water Pollution

This site clearly explains environmental concerns of Clear Creek County, with pictures and graphs. "CDOT is today the single biggest polluter to Clear Creek in Clear Creek County."
http://www.trainsnotlanes.info/page13.html

From the same reference:
"Road salts can also affect roadside vegetation by depositing as aerosols on the trees’ needles or leaves and affecting the exchange of water or air with the environment, to such a degree that it can kill the leaves or needles. In the case of pines, affected needles usually turn reddish-brown. The added salt can also change the structure of the roadside soil and may make it less permeable to water, thus starving the tree of water.

Magnesium Chloride is also a salt and is the primary component in the liquid de-icers used by CDOT on I-70. Magnesium Chloride has deleterious effects on streams and trout in particular. Magnesium Chloride is believed to adversely affect riparian vegetation, stunting overall growth and decreasing leaf cover that this vegetation provides. Magnesium Chloride affects roadside vegetation in the same way as hard road salts, by depositing as an aerosol on the trees’ needles or leaves and affecting the exchange of water or air with the environment to a degree that can kill the leaves or needles. The liquid salt can also change the structure of the roadside soil and may make it less permeable to water, thus starving the tree of water and nutrients."

The point in any of this is that everything we do has an impact. Standard practices taken for granted years ago would never be considered today because we know better. Just because something is being done or has been historically without question does not mean it is necessarily a wise practice. There are of course trade offs involved, such as in viable travel versus possible consequences. But it should be fairly clear by now that this world not inexhaustible and we do live within the home we make of it.

But to return specifically to the point at hand: Magnesium Chloride. As a salt, at the many million of gallons used, this is clearly at a volume greater than the environment can tolerate and detrimental to trees, other vegetation and rivers.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by Idunn

http://www.trainsnotlanes.info/page13.html

From the same reference:
"Road salts can also ...

Sorry, but the site you reference is just another bunch of political activists making unsourced and unsubstantiated (but scientific-looking) claims. I looked through that site and see no acceptable peer-reviewed science...just a lot more statements made as if they were facts by another political action group. This sort of circular cross-referencing is just political cheerleading masquerading as science. When you follow the leads back to establish the so-called facts being thrown around, there's no credible foundation.

Airports do not use glycol solutions on runways, but they do use them on aircraft. And most airports now have effluent collection systems that trap runoff of all kinds for treatment before it gets into the local drainages.

You keep asserting that there are clear effects on the environment and that the environment can't tolerate current usage of this chemical. There are still no proven harmful environmental effects established with science. The number of times that different groups of environmental activists repeat each other's unproven non-facts does not change that.

[Idunn]

Some of the references provided, such as the one referenced, provide a good overview if not direct substantiation. But in carefully reading other references provided on these pages you will find instances of hard facts and figures.

One being that Magnesium Chloride is harmful to the environment. Even CDOT admits this.

"We know that mag chloride isn't good for the environment," said CDOT spokesperson Stacey Stegman.
Summit Daily News for Breckenridge, Keystone, Copper and Frisco Colorado - News

Anyone interested will find this article clear, concise and informative. Would also welcome the initiative of anyone posting the report by the University of Northern Colorado on this forum.

[Bob from down south]

But no instances of hard facts or figures with documented credible sources.

Moderator cut: copyright protected article removed...please see link for more of the above mentioned article

The case is not at all clear that MgCl is the culprit for much of the roadside vegetation damage (beetles...traction sand...phosphorus...copper...zinc?), nor that MgCl is more harmful than alternatives like sand treatment. And there is a case for needed public benefits in terms of road safety and air quality control.

[Idunn]

It is perfectly clear that something, right now, is killing many trees directly beside roads. This is unprecedented.

There is nothing inherently unsafe about driving on snow. Try slowing down.

As for air quality, next time one is on a dusty gravel road consider what else you might be breathing other than dirt. As some of these articles have referenced, Magnesium Chloride is used for dust suppression. So in the short term great, less dust, but down the road guess what you're breathing? And even if one doesn't care about trees, it isn't good for YOU either.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by Idunn

It is perfectly clear that something, right now, is killing many trees directly beside roads. This is unprecedented.

One of the quotes that the moderator cut out of the post above was a public official stating that he thought the pine beetles were doing more damage than the MgCl.

Originally Posted by Idunn

There is nothing inherently unsafe about driving on snow. Try slowing down.

Except when the other driver doesn't slow down. That's like saying "There is nothing inherently unsafe about driving at 1 AM on New Year's morning. Try not driving drunk." Your family won't be consoled by the fact that you weren't drunk when an Escalade full of s***-faced teens on their way home from the party hits you head on.

Originally Posted by Idunn

As for air quality, next time one is on a dusty gravel road consider what else you might be breathing other than dirt. As some of these articles have referenced, Magnesium Chloride is used for dust suppression. So in the short term great, less dust, but down the road guess what you're breathing?

Ummm...less dust??

[ryanek9freak]

Why are you so viciously defending this Bob? Do you sell MAg Chloride or something? lol.

I just wish they could find something for snow control that wasnt dangerous and corrosive.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by ryanek9freak

I just wish they could find something for snow control that wasnt dangerous and corrosive.

If I had an extra $15K or $20K laying around, I'd install these on my F-150 and Sequoia. The school buses have them...you can see the chains dangling inside the rear tires.

Insta-Chain, the Automatic Ice Chain | Instachain Insta Chain