Magnesium Chloride & Your Environment (taxi, airport, pool)

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by McGowdog

Putting aside the argument for or against Mag Choride as an ecological threat, I don't think it works so good under certain circumstances.

I first encountered it in Denver in the late 90's driving up and down I-25 and although it raises the freezing point of water, it leaves what seems to me a dark and somewhat slick surface by itself over asphalt. When I drive on that stuff, I'm kind of careful because I don't trust it that much.

I was driving in Pueblo one night a while back and there are a few curves and long bridge surfaces in this one area and I remember that mag chloride being on the road. I looked in my rear view mirror (wow, what a concept) and saw this car coming at me as I was in the fast lane. I was wanting to pass this car but got over due to the rate this car was approaching me. I then wondered what he/she was gonna do once she passed me, because the car in front of me pulled into the passing lane. This car that had just passed me pulled towards the right, then back left, then she lost control.

She was obviously going too fast, but the roads should have been otherwise dry that night. It was somewhat cold out, but I don't think it was frost on the road. I think the mag chloride made the road slick. We were on a bridge too. I know that doesn't help, but it wasn't well below freezing out either. She fish-tailed for about a half a mile, almost hitting guard rails until she came to a stop on the side of the bridge. She didn't manage to hit anything, but she was lucky there was no traffic behind me.

I would like to find out more about the slip resistance of that stuff on different surfaces at different temperatures.

Liquid mag chloride is indeed quite slick until it dries. If there is just a little water on the road with mag chloride, it can be pretty slick, too. By the way, in case anyone wonders where it comes from, it is mined out of the Great Salt Lake in Utah--eons of salt deposited there. Also, not much plant life--that ought to tell you something about mag chloride right there.

[ryanek9freak]

I totally agree with the people that want it stopped. I think that ALL salts should be discontinued immediatley. There's no need for it. Most people in Colorado own a 4wd vehicle of some sort, and if everyone would just learn to slow down and drive carefully, it wouldn't be a problem. Oh, and as an auto tech, I can tell you, I HATE that stuff, it makes my job a living nightmare.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by Idunn

Excerpt from 'Management of Hazardous Chemicals'

"If a spill or leak to the environment has occurred...

The referenced material is intended for a spill of concentrated mag chloride, not the diluted solution used on the roadways. The same material also notes that mag chloride has an aquatic half-life of less than two days, meaning that it breaks down very quickly and does not persist in runoff water.

There are lots of chemicals used routinely as food additives and preservatives that we eat daily, that can be harmful in concentrated form. You can find lots of material about handling of chlorine in hazmat procedures, for example...oriented towards the concentrated stuff...and to use the existence of those procedures to say that chlorine laundry bleach (low concentration chlorine solution) should be outlawed would be equally ludicrous.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by ryanek9freak

I totally agree with the people that want it stopped. I think that ALL salts should be discontinued immediatley. There's no need for it. Most people in Colorado own a 4wd vehicle of some sort, and if everyone would just learn to slow down and drive carefully, it wouldn't be a problem. Oh, and as an auto tech, I can tell you, I HATE that stuff, it makes my job a living nightmare.

A living nightmare? How melodramatic. I musta missed that B-reel movie..."Night of the Auto Tech Corrosion Zombies."

4WD doesn't help a vehicle slow down. Now if "everyone" would slow down, I'd agree with you...but all it takes is one other driver not slowing down and you are now at risk of suffering the effects brought on by the combination of his/her bad driving and an untreated icy road.

Easiest way to keep the stuff off your car is to minimize driving when the roads are treated. But I still think that the risks to safety to drivers on an untreated icy road eclipse the risks of road treatment.

[Idunn]

Yes, of course concentration does matter. The point here that salts are being applied to Colorado roadways far in excess of what the environment can tolerate. Consider this:

"use ... has now been expanded to secondary highways in Colorado; application has increased 1,400 percent in the last eight years, to 10.62 million gallons."
High Country News -- March 15, 2004: The de-icer that tames Western roads

This just one source, but the figure likely accurate. Chorine, by the way, is not good for one either. It is widely overused only out of ignorance and because a seemingly simple solution. There are better alternatives.

I don't wish to overstate this. There is a balance in all things. To no more than live is to be continually assaulted on a variety of fronts, yet we survive. But there are also countless cases of needless harm, where we in effect our own worst enemy. More than a few of these food additives would more than qualify.

Rather than decry Magnesium Chloride as the worst thing in the world, or nothing to be concerned with, how about discovering the truth of it? If we as a community and State would be better off with a different alternative wouldn't it be wise to find and apply it?

[ryanek9freak]

Really Bob? How many years have you been an auto tech? Dealing with rust issues on cars is so bad for me, that i've considered moving to California, just so I didn't have to deal with rust. I get paid on a flat rate sysytem. Which means that if the labor book says it takes 2.5 hours to change a ball joint, and I have to spend an extra half hour heating things up with a torch, to get nuts and bolts to move, I don't get paid 3.0 hours, I still only get the 2.5. Yes, rust, is a LIVING NIGHTMARE. Until you've been in my profession for 10 years, i'll kindly ask you to not speak up, unless you know what you're talking about.

I understand that 4WD doesn't help people stop any better. It's 4WD, not 4 wheel stop.
That being said, they could stop using all road salts RIGHT NOW, and i'd never miss it. The resulting pile ups would weed out the idiots that can't seem to understand that you have to SLOW DOWN when there's snow on the road. Everyone is always is in such a damn hurry. That would teach 'em.

Now, I think the only viable reason to use ice melting chemicals, is to make the roads safe for emergency vehicles. They actually need it.

[EscapeCalifornia]

Originally Posted by ryanek9freak

I understand that 4WD doesn't help people stop any better. It's 4WD, not 4 wheel stop.
That being said, they could stop using all road salts RIGHT NOW, and i'd never miss it. The resulting pile ups would weed out the idiots that can't seem to understand that you have to SLOW DOWN when there's snow on the road. Everyone is always is in such a damn hurry. That would teach 'em.

If only cars were spaced 1/2 mile apart at all times, I'd agree with that. But what happens when one of those idiots rear ends you at a stop light at 35 mph when road salts could have reduced that to 10 mph or prevented it at all? Will you sit there in your neck brace and say "That sure taught him a lesson!"?

[ryanek9freak]

nah, i'd just sit back and wait for a good week or 2. That would probably leave enough time to get rid of all of the people who can't drive. I just can't see your arguments guys. I stand by all my previous statements. NO ROAD SALTS. Sand works just fine.

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by ryanek9freak

Really Bob? How many years have you been an auto tech? Dealing with rust issues on cars is so bad for me, that i've considered moving to California, just so I didn't have to deal with rust. I get paid on a flat rate sysytem. Which means that if the labor book says it takes 2.5 hours to change a ball joint, and I have to spend an extra half hour heating things up with a torch, to get nuts and bolts to move, I don't get paid 3.0 hours, I still only get the 2.5. Yes, rust, is a LIVING NIGHTMARE. Until you've been in my profession for 10 years, i'll kindly ask you to not speak up, unless you know what you're talking about.

Been working on my own vehicles for all my life. Had my share of busted bloody knuckles trying to get stubborn rusted bolts to move.

But, from my perspective, a "living nightmare" is watching your wife slowly wither away with cancer, or an aging parent drifting into the neverland of Alzheimers, or seeing your life savings evaporate in a catastrophic financial market collapse, or waking up at age 60 realizing that you have no savings for retirement and that Social Security is neither, or turning on your television on election night and seeing President-elect Hillary Clinton's victory speech, etc etc.

Rusted ball joints aren't even in the same universe as a real "living nightmare." If you really think they are, you need to move to California. Find a nice girl there, settle down and buy a nice house, and then get served divorce papers (while working on a shiny new BMW ball joint). She'll get the house, the kids, and most of the money you'll ever be able to earn, all while sleeping with Antonio the pool boy in a waterbed you're still paying for. Now that's a living nightmare.

[ryanek9freak]

HA! been there done that Bob. Only my ex wife got the short end of the stick. SHe left with the clothes on her back, and I got the house, and all the contents. Trust me, i'll never get that lucky again, so marriage isn't gonna happen this time around!!! I don't trust anyone.

Oh, and I agree with you, Hillary clinton would be a living nightmare, on many levels. Anyways, gettting off topic, yes, I have great disdain for road salt. It does make my career choice rather difficult, but I do more and more diagnostic work every day, and hopefully i'll be able to get out from underneath a car altogether pretty soon.