Magnesium Chloride & Your Environment (Denver, Pueblo: work, health, home)

[Idunn]

Perhaps you've noticed all the dead and dying trees along the roadway? Every wondered why so many dead directly along the road yet so relatively few elsewhere?

The answer is probably Magnesium Chloride.

CDOT has been using Magnesium Chloride as a winter road de-icer since 1995/1996 as an alternative to the use of other salts and/or sand. It is also used for dust suppression on gravel roads in the summer.

CDOT - CoTrip.Org - Winter Driving

Colorado State University has been studying the effects of Magnesium Chloride but has yet to release any definitive findings:
Forest Shade and Tree Health

CDOT admits that Magnesium Chloride is harmful to the environment, only downplaying the effects and saying they are within acceptable limits. This is probably not the case. In fact Basalt, Aspen and Summit County have already outlawed the use of Magnesium Chloride citing safety, health, and environmental concerns. This has become an issue in other western states, such as Montana, although Colorado has been most aggressive in using Magnesium Chloride.

Some of the possible negative effects of Magnesium Chloride use may be environmental damage to roadside streams and vegetation, and wildlife, damage to concrete bridges, and possibly even cancer in humans.

It is also known to do severe damage to all automobiles, "including the undercarriages, to prevent corrosion of electrical wires, nuts, brake shoes and even ball joints."
High Country News -- March 15, 2004: The de-icer that tames Western roads

It is probably also directly responsible for killing the majority of trees along many roadways. Hardly alone, but US 36 between Lyons and Estes Park vividly illustrates what is happening. Pay particular attention to drainage, specific location of trees and how affected, and also surrounding mountain sides largely unaffected.

At some point the use of Magnesium Chloride may be discontinued, due severe environmental impact. But in the near term its use may only increase because it is a good de-icer at relatively low initial cost. Later on officials and other supporters will probably claim ignorance for that wrought, saying we didn't realize.

Do you want to wait?

This is a call for all interested parties to form a coalition NOW to stop the use of Magnesium Chloride by CDOT. No less. The goal that Magnesium Chloride will not by used by CDOT the winter of 2008/2009 or ever again.

CDOT and the powers that be within Colorado will surely resist this, but if the people of Colorado say NO with a unified and purposeful voice they will change this policy.

Who is with me?

[cobmw]

Is this the chemical that truckers complain about because it eats through brake lines and affects electrical connections? If so it is a nuisance.

But what is the alternative? It's easy to say stop doing it. Stop doing everthying that has any effect on the environment. But what is the alternative? Do we then stop using the roads because they are dangerously slippery without this chemical?

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by Idunn

Perhaps you've noticed all the dead and dying trees along the roadway? Every wondered why so many dead directly along the road yet so relatively few elsewhere?

The answer is probably Magnesium Chloride.

You say it is "probably" mag chloride. But the study you cite only asks the question...it has not reached a conclusion. You don't know, yet you throw it out as the culprit. FWIW, there are a lot of dead trees along the road in places where they don't have snow, much less use mag chloride.

Originally Posted by Idunn

CDOT admits that Magnesium Chloride is harmful to the environment, only downplaying the effects and saying they are within acceptable limits. This is probably not the case. In fact Basalt, Aspen and Summit County have already outlawed the use of Magnesium Chloride citing safety, health, and environmental concerns. This has become an issue in other western states, such as Montana, although Colorado has been most aggressive in using Magnesium Chloride.

They aren't "downplaying" the effects--they do not have any evidence that the effects you describe even exist. If I tell you that it's possible that eating a piece of food can make you choke to death (and it is possible), does accepting the very low risk and then eating the food mean that you are "downplaying" the risk?

The fact that a few other counties have already over-reacted (maybe due to irrational application of non-science as you attempt here) is not a solid basis to jump on the bandwagon.

Originally Posted by Idunn

Some of the possible negative effects of Magnesium Chloride use may be environmental damage to roadside streams and vegetation, and wildlife, damage to concrete bridges, and possibly even cancer in humans.

I think most of the chemicals used in everday life have been unfairly blamed for cancer at some point. There is no evidence that there is a link, and to suggest that there is without evidence is irresponsible in the extremis.



Here's what the Aspen environmental safety lady says: "

"Mag chloride itself may not harm streams or people, but it could be dangerous in combination with other elements. We just don’t know."

"Don't know" means "don't know." It does not mean "probably."

Originally Posted by Idunn

It is also known to do severe damage to all automobiles, "including the undercarriages, to prevent corrosion of electrical wires, nuts, brake shoes and even ball joints."
High Country News -- March 15, 2004: The de-icer that tames Western roads

All mineral salt solutions facilitate galvanic corrosion in unprotected metal. Regular sodium chloride (i.e. rock salt) does the same thing. It needs washed off ASAP to prevent damage. Severe damage only results when vehicles are neglected after being driven on treated roads.

Originally Posted by Idunn

It is probably also directly responsible for killing the majority of trees along many roadways.

There you go again. No basis at all for "probably." You think it might, and then throw it out as a likelihood. No sale.

Originally Posted by Idunn

At some point the use of Magnesium Chloride may be discontinued, due severe environmental impact.

Says who? There is no demonstrated environmental impact, severe or otherwise.

Originally Posted by Idunn

Do you want to wait?

No, I'd rather take action based on this overstated hyperbole and innuendo rather than on some actual science. //sarcasm off// Yes, I'd rather wait and not slide into an embankment on an icy road.

Originally Posted by Idunn

CDOT and the powers that be within Colorado will surely resist this, but if the people of Colorado say NO with a unified and purposeful voice they will change this policy.

How about a unified and purposeful voice saying "no more reactionary politics based on junk science!" instead?

[jazzlover]

My personal opinion is that mag chloride is overused, just like regular road salt was overused before it. As to which may be more harmful, that is a matter still of some speculation. Point is, they are BOTH salts, and most Colorado soils don't need more salt. Mag chloride is corrosive to vehicles--any mechanic who works on vehicles that are around it will tell you that.

The overuse of mag chloride is just one more example of substituting a potentially harmful, but certainly expensive practice instead of people taking responsibility to learn how to operate a vehicle safely on something besides a perfectly dry road. When I learned to drive four decades ago, we had few front-wheel-drive cars, no anti-skid braking systems, much less sophisticated snow tires, no electronic stability control--yet, somehow, we managed pretty well driving on snowpacked and icy roads that often had minimal treatment with anything besides some plowing and a little sand. In other words, it would seem as we have gotten technologically smarter, we have gotten personally more ignorant. And I don't think that is a circumstance limited to driving on snowy road, either . . .

[EscapeCalifornia]

What's the best way to get mag chloride off your car? Just spray the wheel wells and underside as best as possible without a lift? Do automated car washes have any nozzles positioned to clean the underside of the car?

[Bob from down south]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

The overuse of mag chloride is just one more example of substituting a potentially harmful, but certainly expensive practice instead of people taking responsibility to learn how to operate a vehicle safely on something besides a perfectly dry road. When I learned to drive four decades ago, we had few front-wheel-drive cars, no anti-skid braking systems, much less sophisticated snow tires, no electronic stability control--yet, somehow, we managed pretty well driving on snowpacked and icy roads that often had minimal treatment with anything besides some plowing and a little sand. In other words, it would seem as we have gotten technologically smarter, we have gotten personally more ignorant. And I don't think that is a circumstance limited to driving on snowy road, either . . .

I don't remember the good old days quite so fondly. I have a few friends that were injured, one severely, in accidents on icy roads in the days before anti-skid systems in cars, front-wheel drive, and sand (or nothing at all) used vs chemical ice treatment. Chemicals do serve as an important safety enhancement when used properly. I would also agree that they may be used too much, but when you need 'em, you need 'em.

And one other thing worth saying is that we have structured our society in a way that taking a "time-out" when the wx is really bad isn't feasible. Sometimes making the decision to not go out on icy roads is the most important part of being a competent winter driver. Sliding into an intersection into the path of an oncoming semi-truck hardly doesn't seem to justify a friend's fateful decision to go out in a snow storm just to bring a take-out pizza home.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by Bob from down south

I don't remember the good old days quite so fondly. I have a few friends that were injured, one severely, in accidents on icy roads in the days before anti-skid systems in cars, front-wheel drive, and sand (or nothing at all) used vs chemical ice treatment. Chemicals do serve as an important safety enhancement when used properly. I would also agree that they may be used too much, but when you need 'em, you need 'em.

And one other thing worth saying is that we have structured our society in a way that taking a "time-out" when the wx is really bad isn't feasible. Sometimes making the decision to not go out on icy roads is the most important part of being a competent winter driver. Sliding into an intersection into the path of an oncoming semi-truck hardly doesn't seem to justify a friend's fateful decision to go out in a snow storm just to bring a take-out pizza home.

Not to mention that we have structured our society with few transportation alternatives to the automobile. When this country had a viable and extensive passenger rail system, people did not HAVE to drive when making medium or long-distance trips. People have totally forgotten that rail is the transportation mode LEAST affected by inclement weather. In fact, that is still largely true. The biggest cause of weather problems and delays in today's rail system are caused by train crews being unable to get to their terminal to go to work because they have to drive there on, guess what?--the highways. Commuter rail is also largely unaffected by poor weather. But, instead, we placed all our passenger transportation eggs in two baskets, automobiles and air, the two transportation modes most affected by and made most hazardous by adverse weather conditions. How dumb can we get?

PS--To the question of how to wash mag chloride off of a car: Best is high pressure washing--by hand--and it takes quite a while. Spent many an hour at it. Also, mag chloride REALLY chews up aluminum (like aluminum wheels on cars). It will actually etch them if left on them long enough.

[Idunn]

Thank you for your interest; I appreciate ALL the replies.

I am advocating the cessation of Magnesium Chloride use before all the science is in because enough is (and I'll elaborate) and if left to politicians this problem will be far worse before ever resolved.

One should know however that some aspects of Magnesium Chloride are well known, that as a salt it is harmful to the environment, wildlife, concrete, and automobiles.

As far as automobiles, any mechanic will attest as much. It has to washed off ALL surfaces of the automobile as soon as possible. A friend tells me that some automatic car washes will, for about maybe $8, wash the underside of a vehicle, as well as all the rest. Practically speaking, most people can probably expect the same or worse problems experienced by those back East, particularly if frequenting highways such as I-70.

I'll provide some documentation below as to Magnesium Chloride's effect on concrete.

As to trees and other vegetation, I'm not entirely sure. But a formerly scenic drive should help to convince most anyone. Irrespective of the pine beetle, something dire is happening and it is directly along the sides of highways. And this is not confined to only vegetation but also all water courses, along which so many roads parallel. Just imagine for a moment how much your garden and lawn would welcome the liberal application of salt; and then multiply this by all the Magnesium Chloride being dispersed every year.

I do NOT have all the facts, but not only welcome any and all but also mutual support that will seek same out and move quickly to implement a viable solution.

Personally I like driving on snow packed roads at times, although preferring them dry when in a hurry. Part of the trade off in this may the acceptance of the motoring public that they shouldn't expect perfectly clear roads in the winter. But other solutions are possible. Maybe not widely applicable, but mountain roads of northern New Mexico are treated after a good snow with a course red sand that provides good traction, but otherwise no dispersal of snow. Note though that sand can pose its own problems. For that matter, I've driven on many a snow packed road that was no more than plowed, and good traction achieved in just having a good vehicle and slowing down.

Again, do not necessarily believe me but consider your own best interest, and consider this a warning fairly given. Consider, or ignore if you will, the information given and where it may indeed lead. And if persuaded, then please take such action as you may to help alleviate this.

Some few references for your consideration:

Iowa State University has done more testing than many on effects of Magnesium Chloride on concrete:
Concrete Deterioration by Deicing Salts: An Experimental Study

This is an, 'Excerpt from Management of Hazardous Chemicals' by Jeffrey W. Vincoli. I'll put up a separate posting on just this, as well as a link to source.

A brief synopsis from the Transportation Research Board:
WATER POLLUTION AND ASSOCIATED EFFECTS FROM STREET SALTING (ABRIDGMENT)

This a Material Safety Data Sheet on Magnesium Chloride. Please note that Magnesium Chloride is not believed to be a carcinogen, but does pose other health effects. One might consider this in context of Magnesium Chloride being used on gravel roads in the summer:
MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE

A study on de-icing by the University of Michigan. Note that Magnesium Chloride is not noted to have adverse environmental impact, but in whole the study says any salt has an adverse impact. Note also that this study indicative of many others as past and current road de-icing regimens are understood to have adverse impacts, and some better solution sought:
Occupational Safety and Environmental Health

[Idunn]

Excerpt from 'Management of Hazardous Chemicals'
by Jeffrey W. Vincoli

Risk Management for Hazardous Chemicals - Google Book Search


"If a spill or leak to the environment has occurred, fire department, emergency response and/or hazardous materials spill personnel should be notified immediately. Do not dry sweep. When vacuuming, a high efficiency particulate air (HEPA) filter should be used, not a standard shop vacuum. Do NOT use water to rinse residue. Deposit collected materials in sealed, moisture-free drums for disposal. Cleanup should be attempted only by those trained in proper spill containment procedures. Contaminated soils may need to be removed and replaced with clean soil. If magnesium chloride should contact the water table, aquifer, or navigable waterway, time is of the essence. Magnesium Chloride is soluble in water and will decompose. therefore, total containment and remediation may not be possible. When such spills occur, the local and/or state emergency response authorities should be notified. A comprehensive emergency response or disaster preparedness/recovery plan should be in place prior to any operations involving the use, transportation, storage, or disposal of magnesium chloride. If magnesium chloride is spilled or leaked, the following specific steps are recommended:

* Restrict persons not wearing protective clothing from area of spill or leak until cleanup is complete and area can be opened for normal work.

* Ventilate area of spill or leak and remove all ignition sources.

* Collect powdered materials i most convenient and safe manner possible and place in sealed drums for disposal. Do NOT dry sweep, use HEPA vacuum instead. Do NOT use water to clean residue or damp mop.

* It may be necessary to dispose of magnesium chloride as a hazardous waste. The responsible state agency or regional office of the federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) should be contacted for specific recommendations."

[McGowdog]

Putting aside the argument for or against Mag Choride as an ecological threat, I don't think it works so good under certain circumstances.

I first encountered it in Denver in the late 90's driving up and down I-25 and although it raises the freezing point of water, it leaves what seems to me a dark and somewhat slick surface by itself over asphalt. When I drive on that stuff, I'm kind of careful because I don't trust it that much.

I was driving in Pueblo one night a while back and there are a few curves and long bridge surfaces in this one area and I remember that mag chloride being on the road. I looked in my rear view mirror (wow, what a concept) and saw this car coming at me as I was in the fast lane. I was wanting to pass this car but got over due to the rate this car was approaching me. I then wondered what he/she was gonna do once she passed me, because the car in front of me pulled into the passing lane. This car that had just passed me pulled towards the right, then back left, then she lost control.

She was obviously going too fast, but the roads should have been otherwise dry that night. It was somewhat cold out, but I don't think it was frost on the road. I think the mag chloride made the road slick. We were on a bridge too. I know that doesn't help, but it wasn't well below freezing out either. She fish-tailed for about a half a mile, almost hitting guard rails until she came to a stop on the side of the bridge. She didn't manage to hit anything, but she was lucky there was no traffic behind me.

I would like to find out more about the slip resistance of that stuff on different surfaces at different temperatures.