U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-08-2017, 07:07 AM
 
6,942 posts, read 3,031,422 times
Reputation: 4421

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGray View Post
Total Profit = Number of homes built x (Selling price of Home - Total cost to build a home)

New homes in other parts of the US are selling for ~$300,000. This is roughly 3/5 the selling price.

Assuming they are making a profit couldn't builders in Colorado afford to pay construction workers a little more so they can build more houses and still make the same if not a larger profit?

I just don't get the housing market here. There is nothing but room to build North/South/East of Denver. I can't imagine prices staying as high as they are.
Its becasue these issues span time, it takes 8-10 years to become an entry level professional engineer, 5 years or so to become an entry level journyman anything. I could go on and on.


When someone invests that kind of time and training to a craft or trade and some vulture capitalists want to come along and choke everyone out forcing these people onto unemployment, forced moves to states where they know no one for the sake of a job, pulling kids out of school, forced retraining instead of retirement planning.


Do you really think that these people are just going to come back with a smile and a song. The last 10 years have been a period of extreme abuse to workers, busting up unions making govt GS positions nearly impossible to get etc etc.


The trust is gone, just because some vulture capitalists are exploiting some localized mini boom in colorado does not mean everyone is going to jump ... unless the generals are paying 80-100 hr plus expenses. Why would I fly to colorado for a job to get fleeced by the slum lords for 30/hr? I lived in CO for 5 years, its a cess pool unless your filthy rich.


People are finally wising up and its taken awhile for the vulture capitalists to start feeling the pain.


Also lets not forget that these people are telling thier kids to do completely different things because of how bad the shaft has been the last decade. Vulture capitalists have proven how easy they can dispose of people why would these people direct these kids to these same fields that they were displaced from?


When you have been in a race to the bottom for a long time and the bottom is reached or is very close most people just want to toke up and check out work just barely enough to live and call it a day until things truely improve. The only time you see exceptions is if someone is doing some thing for its own sake because they just like doing it but dont expect them to show up to your work site at 7am unless its big bucks.


What exactly did people expect to happen? This is not a game, unemployment is a survival issue for alot of people and the eliets treat it like a video game.


The first step that is going to have to happen is at-will employment has to go away, laws need to be writen in such a way that employers have to have profound reasons to fire, gross incompetence, negligence etc. Not just becasue the dividends are not high enough. It will have to become an employee market again with said protections in place so people can get jobs and keep them so they can take on a mortage a new car without constant fear of lay offs.


Without these protections and wihtout an abundance of good jobs things will get worse and politicians wont be able to ignore it much longer at state levels.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-08-2017, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
3,051 posts, read 2,081,073 times
Reputation: 3539
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
We are way past profit motive and are far far along into full blown vulture capitalism. Making an honest profit is one thing using every kiniving scheme the human mind can dream up to screw people is where we are now.
I would consider it predatory capitalism myself. Predators search out and kill things. Vultures sit around and wait for left overs, but that's just semantics.

This extreme capitalism has spread throughout our country for decades now and has impacted nearly every industry out there. Construction workers actually have a luxury not enjoyed by nearly any other trade industry out there; their work cannot be exported. Homes, buildings, roads, bridges all have to be constructed on site. They can't be built somewhere else and imported unlike nearly every other trade. Computer drives built in cleanrooms can and have moved to the Pac Rim. Home electronics have moved to Korea. Auto assembly has migrated to Mexico. Even many vaunted service jobs that were to be the high paying replacements for the trade jobs, are being exported to India. Only construction is exempt from exporting.

I'd also suggest that the demand for ROI and the profits that go along with the executives that manage it all have all been endorsed by us along the way. Do you have a 401k? Many of us do. It was not that long ago that pensions were deemed obsolete (1978 I believe) and 401ks were rolled out and turned us all into money managers. As each of us have strived to improve our 401k returns, we have tended to migrate to those companies that create the best returns for us. Why grow a portfolio at 3% when you can hook up with these vultures and make 15%? We have, in effect, endorsed this behavior by corporations. This mentality is trickling down to nearly any industry and company irregardless of size and type. We are our own worst enemy in this regard. These days,it is a newsworthy item when you hear of an organization that narrows the gap between top and bottom level workers or provides fringe benefits that are far reaching and impact the lives of their employees. IMO, that is a sad state for us to be in.

IMO, if I was in construction, I'd be gettin' while the gettin' is good, because everything runs in cycles. Ride the wave whiles its available, because it will flatten out eventually.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-08-2017, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Washington Park, Denver
6,905 posts, read 6,501,326 times
Reputation: 7355
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGray View Post
Total Profit = Number of homes built x (Selling price of Home - Total cost to build a home)

New homes in other parts of the US are selling for ~$300,000. This is roughly 3/5 the selling price.

Assuming they are making a profit couldn't builders in Colorado afford to pay construction workers a little more so they can build more houses and still make the same if not a larger profit?

I just don't get the housing market here. There is nothing but room to build North/South/East of Denver. I can't imagine prices staying as high as they are.
They can't build more houses. They are at max capacity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-08-2017, 10:48 AM
 
Location: The 719
14,498 posts, read 22,347,982 times
Reputation: 13810
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDog77 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by parfleche View Post
HaHaha we have to bring our own lunch!!! You don't even have a clue how to stay alive.
I don't know what this means.
I think it's a Del Snorte thing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-08-2017, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Denver
3,182 posts, read 2,622,799 times
Reputation: 2206
Quote:
Originally Posted by parfleche View Post
HaHaha we have to bring our own lunch!!! You don't even have a clue how to stay alive.
I brought my own lunch to the jobsite for 3 years. Now, I don't have to bring it every day (I still can if I want to), and if I do, I have a frig and microwave and dishes to use.

That ^^ is just one of the many aspects where construction work sucks more than other types of work. You can't just compare annual incomes and say that hey, now construction work looks like it pays decent! Their's a whole lot more than just the paycheck that matters for work.


Also, while some general contractors have made off well, the consumer has made off very well with the exploitation of construction labor. They get a whole lot more house for their buck than they would in a more normal labor market. For a comparison, look at home prices in Europe per SQFT.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-08-2017, 07:57 PM
 
Location: mancos
7,170 posts, read 6,449,848 times
Reputation: 4943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
I brought my own lunch to the jobsite for 3 years. Now, I don't have to bring it every day (I still can if I want to), and if I do, I have a frig and microwave and dishes to use.

That ^^ is just one of the many aspects where construction work sucks more than other types of work. You can't just compare annual incomes and say that hey, now construction work looks like it pays decent! Their's a whole lot more than just the paycheck that matters for work.


Also, while some general contractors have made off well, the consumer has made off very well with the exploitation of construction labor. They get a whole lot more house for their buck than they would in a more normal labor market. For a comparison, look at home prices in Europe per SQFT.
Cause you can't live without your help.Last year I trimmed a house 7 miles up a national forest road in a private holding I brought enough food water and beer to last for days.No cell radio or tv so I worked 14 hour days and made a fortune.The subs would show up on Monday and see my truck buried under 2 feet of snow and say what the hell are you living here! I would say yeah and they said I had balls.I would say no I'm just a typical senior citizen who can deal with real life by myself without outside help.Plus I made believe it was my house while I was there without making a payment.The stars and full moon were something else.Live dammit don't be a slave with use of a fridge and microwave to justify your slavery.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-09-2017, 01:38 PM
 
6,942 posts, read 3,031,422 times
Reputation: 4421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCHP View Post
I would consider it predatory capitalism myself. Predators search out and kill things. Vultures sit around and wait for left overs, but that's just semantics.

This extreme capitalism has spread throughout our country for decades now and has impacted nearly every industry out there. Construction workers actually have a luxury not enjoyed by nearly any other trade industry out there; their work cannot be exported. Homes, buildings, roads, bridges all have to be constructed on site. They can't be built somewhere else and imported unlike nearly every other trade. Computer drives built in cleanrooms can and have moved to the Pac Rim. Home electronics have moved to Korea. Auto assembly has migrated to Mexico. Even many vaunted service jobs that were to be the high paying replacements for the trade jobs, are being exported to India. Only construction is exempt from exporting.

I'd also suggest that the demand for ROI and the profits that go along with the executives that manage it all have all been endorsed by us along the way. Do you have a 401k? Many of us do. It was not that long ago that pensions were deemed obsolete (1978 I believe) and 401ks were rolled out and turned us all into money managers. As each of us have strived to improve our 401k returns, we have tended to migrate to those companies that create the best returns for us. Why grow a portfolio at 3% when you can hook up with these vultures and make 15%? We have, in effect, endorsed this behavior by corporations. This mentality is trickling down to nearly any industry and company irregardless of size and type. We are our own worst enemy in this regard. These days,it is a newsworthy item when you hear of an organization that narrows the gap between top and bottom level workers or provides fringe benefits that are far reaching and impact the lives of their employees. IMO, that is a sad state for us to be in.

IMO, if I was in construction, I'd be gettin' while the gettin' is good, because everything runs in cycles. Ride the wave whiles its available, because it will flatten out eventually.
Its a mix of preditors and vultures, the preditors are the ones who have set the plans in motion for mass lay offs to line share holder profits and its the vultures that go in and pick up periferal investments for pennies on the dollar (forclosures, short sales, estate sales, etc). When a local economy colapses (preditors) and people are forced to leave the area and their homes are not paid for thats when the vultures come in.

When 2008 hit and people were planning to retire around 2009-2010 they had a rude awaking when they were in these 15% investments, one good co-worker end up working almost an entire decade longer due to 2008, he could not pull the money and had to wait for things to recover to move his money to stable value investments.


I am happy with my 3-5% (typically 3% for index and 5% for real estate). Also they can now pre-fabricate much of construction in a massive fab shop and just ship it in and connect it up. There will always be onsite installation costs but they are finding more and more ways to minimize it. Site prep dirt work concrete and blasting will always be needed but because sub's know that their scope will be limited they keep increasing rates or they go away entirely.

When things have been wittled down so tight that there is no longer any fat to survive on you either raise the rates sky high for the site prep or you just go do something else. Which then begs the question, why are we even building things in these places if everything has been outsourced, what are these people doing to afford these houses that are being built, who are driving on these roads to jobs which have been out soruced. There still seems to be packed freeways and alot of people in a hurry to go somewhere, but I dont know where because all I see is lay offs.

Is this people just spending down the last of their savings or credit cards?

Last edited by Mike from back east; 07-09-2017 at 02:07 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-09-2017, 03:05 PM
 
2,073 posts, read 1,813,809 times
Reputation: 1946
I spent 20+ years building houses. The root of the wage problem is two fold. First, the buyers want as much shiny stuff and sqft as they can get, but they don't care about quality. Sure, they might mention it here an there, but would they be willing to pay 20% more for quality materials and labor? Nope. The builder is forced to build at a level just good enough or be stuck with a lot of over priced houses. The second part is that the business is very high risk. You have to make a big profit when times are good so you can weather the bad times.

The labor shortage here along the frontrange is because of the high cost of housing and a lack of established immigrant communities. I know a few builders around Boulder are using RVs and rental homes to solve the price problem because it allows them to temporarily import labor from cheaper locales like ABQ.

Anyway, the price of new housing isn't getting any cheaper around here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-09-2017, 04:03 PM
 
6,942 posts, read 3,031,422 times
Reputation: 4421
Quote:
Originally Posted by brown_dog_us View Post
I spent 20+ years building houses. The root of the wage problem is two fold. First, the buyers want as much shiny stuff and sqft as they can get, but they don't care about quality. Sure, they might mention it here an there, but would they be willing to pay 20% more for quality materials and labor? Nope. The builder is forced to build at a level just good enough or be stuck with a lot of over priced houses. The second part is that the business is very high risk. You have to make a big profit when times are good so you can weather the bad times.

The labor shortage here along the frontrange is because of the high cost of housing and a lack of established immigrant communities. I know a few builders around Boulder are using RVs and rental homes to solve the price problem because it allows them to temporarily import labor from cheaper locales like ABQ.

Anyway, the price of new housing isn't getting any cheaper around here.
The other part is the general contractors are skimming more and more off the top so the subs cant make enough to weather the down turns so they go away permenantly and do other things.


I seen it with my own eyes when I was out at a local muni airport and these generals will have massive hangars with king airs or lear jets. You cant buy lear jets and million dollar hangars unless your skimming massive profits, profits that the subs are not getting.


Now that a sufficient number of subs are going away all the generals are whining and crying, how will they every put fuel in their lear jets to get to the next killing fields.


I would be willing to pay for high end materials and finishes (for the materials themselves) it takes the subs just as long to install mahagony hard wood as it does partical board. Why would I pay the general some arbitary increase to fuel his jet for those finishes beyond material costs?


Everyone is trying to skim while doing the least amount of work and the subs and the consumers are tired of it. Its even worse when its govt contracts and the govt agents are either incompetent or are lining the pockets of their buddies with huge over inflated costs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-23-2017, 05:40 PM
 
20,842 posts, read 39,064,756 times
Reputation: 19075
Quote:
Originally Posted by parfleche View Post
We got treated like crap were replaced with low wage Mexicans and now you want us back? Too bad I won't even look at a job for less than 40 an hour. You convinced younger generations we were animals and college loans were the only way to escape being a low life tradesman. My how the tables have turned .I will never retire as I love Carpentry but I will never work for anyone who does not respect me. I am past retirement age and am allowed to be grumpy.
Found some interesting stuff in the L.A. Times today about the construction trades in that area. The union carpenter in the story makes $40/hour with good benefits, the non-union immigrant sheet metal worker gets $27.50/hour with few bennies. The article is here.

Excerpt: In the span of a few decades, Los Angeles area construction went from an industry that was two-thirds white, and largely unionized, to one that is overwhelmingly Latino, mostly nonunion and heavily reliant on immigrants, according to a Los Angeles Times review of federal data. At the same time, the job got less lucrative. American construction workers today make $5 an hour less than they did in the early 1970s, after adjusting for inflation.

I've tried to stay up to date on all this stuff for decades and am well aware that a lot of corporate interests want the immigrants here to keep wages low and to bust unions, a tactic that is working all too well in many areas such as meat packing, construction, and service trades.
__________________
- Please follow our TOS.
- Any Questions about City-Data? See the FAQ list.
- Want some detailed instructions on using the site? See The Guide for plain english explanation.
- Realtors are welcome here but do see our Realtor Advice to avoid infractions.
- Thank you and enjoy City-Data.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:59 AM.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top