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Old 01-18-2018, 06:25 AM
 
5,321 posts, read 7,165,649 times
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If you think we're brown now, you may not have been here in the 70s/80s. When we get brown air now it is usually an inversion. But who remembers back then when you'd come over that hill heading north on I-25 to see Denver how awful the air looked? MUCH worse than now. But the Front Range does still have an air pollution problem - I think our ozone ranks high compared to a lot of the rest of the country.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:00 AM
 
918 posts, read 983,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
and the steam plume from St Vrain's silly NG reminded me of a day when there were more 'excellent' non-carbon options.

Poof, GONE is the potential for that.
St Vrain's is an example of technical incompetence and overtly optimistic roll-out of technology- typical Baby Boomer engineering producing a product that works half as well as promised at four times the cost.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:27 PM
 
571 posts, read 282,664 times
Reputation: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by otowi View Post
If you think we're brown now, you may not have been here in the 70s/80s. When we get brown air now it is usually an inversion. But who remembers back then when you'd come over that hill heading north on I-25 to see Denver how awful the air looked? MUCH worse than now. But the Front Range does still have an air pollution problem - I think our ozone ranks high compared to a lot of the rest of the country.
I remember the brown cloud in the 70's and when I was in Denver (on Sat.) 2 weeks ago I could not believe how bad it is getting now. This just happened in the last few years- maybe growth has something to do with it?

Looks almost as bad now as it did then.

At least the real estate agents are happy.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:03 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
22,379 posts, read 39,695,573 times
Reputation: 23401
Quote:
Originally Posted by LHS79 View Post
I remember the brown cloud in the 70's and when I was in Denver (on Sat.) 2 weeks ago I could not believe how bad it is getting now. This just happened in the last few years- maybe growth has something to do with it?

Looks almost as bad now as it did then.

At least the real estate agents are happy.
Yeah, I was doing a daily trucking route along Front Range in the 1960's and 1970's, adding to the brown cloud Via the Smokestack of my Diesel truck

It MIGHT have been slightly browner (in the 1970's) in the region close to Denver, but it seldom got north of Boulder. This week it was evident Cheyenne to CoS and BROWN.
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:12 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
22,379 posts, read 39,695,573 times
Reputation: 23401
Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
St Vrain's is an example of technical incompetence and overtly optimistic roll-out of technology- typical Baby Boomer engineering producing a product that works half as well as promised at four times the cost.
You can thank your Federal US Government for St Vrain issues... (most of the world does fine with Nuclear generation INSIDE their cities)

Consider the 747, radial tires, Microwave, Nuclear subs and aircraft carriers, Space ships, and color TV and other FAILURE 'boomer' inventions (that were actually invented / approved / and put on line PRE-BOOMER... ) (by the Boomer fathers / Greatest Generation)

Followed by the simple stuff (jamming some electronics inside an enclosure) Personal Computer, Cell Phones, IJ printers.

It will be VERY enlightening to see the 'successes' of future energy inventions (Don't hold your breath!).. Fortunately there will be 'green card holders' who can come to USA and actually make stuff WORK!
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Old 01-19-2018, 06:59 PM
 
5,321 posts, read 7,165,649 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Yeah, I was doing a daily trucking route along Front Range in the 1960's and 1970's, adding to the brown cloud Via the Smokestack of my Diesel truck

It MIGHT have been slightly browner (in the 1970's) in the region close to Denver, but it seldom got north of Boulder. This week it was evident Cheyenne to CoS and BROWN.
Back then, the way I remember it, it was every day. Then EPA regulations from the 70s started to kick in and be around long enough to make a difference. Is it that way now - i.e. every day now? I haven't been up there recently to know. I was under the impression that it is evidently bad when we get in a temperature inversion which can last a day or a few days at a time, but that other days would be more clear. Is that no longer true?
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Old 01-22-2018, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Gilbert, AZ
3,140 posts, read 1,928,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vision67 View Post
For more information about the future of energy watch this

https://www.wimp.com/ramez-naam-on-t...ure-of-energy/

The future is so bright you're going to need shades!
All it all a pretty good presentation.

Having predominantly electric vehicles as the means of transportation, at least in urban areas, would be nice for air quality. To me that seems not too far away. We already see electric cars on the roads today, and with a bit of improvement on the price and range they could be pretty attractive, especially with what should be a lower maintenance vehicle.

With respect to renewables becoming dominant in grid electricity generation, it's still a ways out and the storage aspect is sorely lacking today. The video agrees with that observation, and he estimates it will be 20-40 years until all of the pieces for this are available.

The storage issue is really the wildcard, IMO. We are making progress, but there seem to still be plenty of unknowns. And while he does discuss nuclear a little there is no specific mention of fusion. Of course there are plenty of unknowns on that path too, but who knows what can happen in a few decades?
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Old 01-22-2018, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
3,042 posts, read 2,074,722 times
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I would be interested in seeing a cradle to grave comparison of modern electric cars to a modern petrol car. While electrics cars to reduce individual emissions, the trade off in commercial emissions with a significant portion of electric vehicles would be interesting to see.

Unrelated but also interesting would also be the damage impact on roadways as a result ever increasingly heavy electric vehicles and approaches to maintenance of road ways with the loss of gas tax monies.
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Old 01-22-2018, 10:26 AM
 
Location: IN
20,784 posts, read 35,813,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vision67 View Post
In Colorado, a glimpse of renewable energy’s insanely cheap future

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envir...-energy-future

According to Carbon Tracker, based on these bids, new wind+storage energy in Colorado is cheaper than energy from the state’s existing coal plants; solar+storage energy is cheaper than 75 percent of the state’s coal energy. This is worth repeating, because it’s a significant milestone: In Colorado, getting energy from new renewable energy projects with storage is cheaper than getting it from existing coal plants. Coal is dead.

The cheapest previously known solar+storage price in the US was $45/MWh, in a PPA signed by Tucson Electric last year. The median Xcel bid for solar+storage beats that by $9.

For the Tucson project, storage added about $15/MWh to the cost of the solar. Compare that to the $3 to $7 added by storage in the Xcel bids. Storage prices are plunging, and as they do, renewables become more competitive.


When technologies change, the driving force is a solution that provides the lowest cost.

I'm looking forward to a future powered by renewable energy. We have so much free sunshine, about 1 kilowatt per square meter, and the technology to harvest that energy is getting cheaper every day.

I remember when digital cameras first came out. Everybody said they were no good. They would never become a replacement for high quality film. They were wrong.

Our future is bright!
Quick, better tell Wyoming that coal isn't the future! They were arguing about in on the forum here a few weeks ago.
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Gilbert, AZ
3,140 posts, read 1,928,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCHP View Post
I would be interested in seeing a cradle to grave comparison of modern electric cars to a modern petrol car. While electrics cars to reduce individual emissions, the trade off in commercial emissions with a significant portion of electric vehicles would be interesting to see.

Unrelated but also interesting would also be the damage impact on roadways as a result ever increasingly heavy electric vehicles and approaches to maintenance of road ways with the loss of gas tax monies.
Going to electric cars has some benefits even if the overall emissions are the same. It could give considerably improved air quality in our cities, and it would make our economy much less dependent on oil, and therefore reduce the power and importance of (mostly unfriendly) oil-producing countries.

The weight difference is not that much. Curb weight of a Leaf is 500-600 pounds more than a Civic, for example. Roads are mostly paid out of general revenues today. Yes, governments would have to figure out how to replace the gas tax, but I am confident they would find a way

Last edited by hikernut; 01-22-2018 at 11:49 AM..
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