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Old 07-27-2018, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Denver CO
18,975 posts, read 10,032,914 times
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Katarina, can't rep you again right now, but I appreciate that perspective from someone with your lengthy experience in the field.

I'm not a clinician but I work in a hospital and I see how much responsibility nurses today have. I think it's crazy to think they can be as well prepared for what gets thrown at them with just 2 years of education.

My understanding is that there are a number of programs for someone with a 2 year nursing degree to get a BSN that presume the person is already working as a nurse so they leave out the clinical component, like the kind Otowi linked to. That makes so much sense to me - obviously hands on learning on the job is also a critical element of being a good nurse.

Plus of course on a personal level, it provides so many additional possible options down the road in management, advanced practice, etc.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,960 posts, read 98,795,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
Katarina, can't rep you again right now, but I appreciate that perspective from someone with your lengthy experience in the field.

I'm not a clinician but I work in a hospital and I see how much responsibility nurses today have. I think it's crazy to think they can be as well prepared for what gets thrown at them with just 2 years of education.

My understanding is that there are a number of programs for someone with a 2 year nursing degree to get a BSN that presume the person is already working as a nurse so they leave out the clinical component, like the kind Otowi linked to. That makes so much sense to me - obviously hands on learning on the job is also a critical element of being a good nurse.

Plus of course on a personal level, it provides so many additional possible options down the road in management, advanced practice, etc.
Thank you! Yes, there are a number of AAS to BSN programs in the area. I believe most have to do a clinical practice in public health, as that is not covered in AAS or diploma programs. And yes, there is far more opportunity for advancement with a BSN, plus the opportunity to go on to get a masters, or a doctorate. Most nurse practitioner programs are doctoral level now.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:48 AM
 
12,842 posts, read 24,473,188 times
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I went to Univ. of Pittsburgh in 1971 for liberal arts (two years). Went to a hospital school of nursing in 1979 which closed a few years later. Worked as an RN in psychiatric for 37 years at a Harvard teaching hospital and then retired this past January.

My observation of BSNs is that the four years do not give them more nursing experience, but the first two years are mostly liberal arts and requirements. They most certainly have less clinical experience than 2-year graduates. Back in the day (my school days) BSNs were also failing the Board exams in larger numbers, likely due to the lack of clinical experience.

I am not against BSNs as an option but would argue that they are not better prepared for clinical work.

The RN-BSN programs are good for those who want or need a BSN for their own options. When I retired, I think I was the last non-BSN working there. I believe part of this was the oversupply of BSNs in the Boston area due to the many programs. A lot of my co-workers got the two-year credential in community college and then worked on a BSN online for their own options.

Making the BSN the entry-level credential will cut out a lot of non-traditional students who did not or cannot begin at the four-year level. I have asked many of them (older students, working-class, parents, immigrants) if they l learned anything of use from the BSN versus their earlier student experiences and they have uniformly said no, it's just a hoop to jump through.

Later in life, I got a master's in public health. Had no effect on my RN life, and wasn't meant to.
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Old 07-27-2018, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,960 posts, read 98,795,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
I went to Univ. of Pittsburgh in 1971 for liberal arts (two years). Went to a hospital school of nursing in 1979 which closed a few years later. Worked as an RN in psychiatric for 37 years at a Harvard teaching hospital and then retired this past January.

My observation of BSNs is that the four years do not give them more nursing experience, but the first two years are mostly liberal arts and requirements. They most certainly have less clinical experience than 2-year graduates. Back in the day (my school days) BSNs were also failing the Board exams in larger numbers, likely due to the lack of clinical experience.

I am not against BSNs as an option but would argue that they are not better prepared for clinical work.

The RN-BSN programs are good for those who want or need a BSN for their own options. When I retired, I think I was the last non-BSN working there. I believe part of this was the oversupply of BSNs in the Boston area due to the many programs. A lot of my co-workers got the two-year credential in community college and then worked on a BSN online for their own options.

Making the BSN the entry-level credential will cut out a lot of non-traditional students who did not or cannot begin at the four-year level. I have asked many of them (older students, working-class, parents, immigrants) if they l learned anything of use from the BSN versus their earlier student experiences and they have uniformly said no, it's just a hoop to jump through.

Later in life, I got a master's in public health. Had no effect on my RN life, and wasn't meant to.
Please document that. The state board exam is not a practicum, it's a paper test. Current pass rates are 88.8% for diploma nurses, 92.39% for BSNs, and 86.87% for associate degree nurses.
https://www.ncsbn.org/Table_of_Pass_Rates.pdf

I do think BSNs are better prepared for clinical work than ADNs. My mom was one of those old-fashioned diploma nurses (1943). She encouraged me to get the BSN right off as it was the wave of the future. As I got into nursing and could talk professionally with her, she stated that "You can't learn in two years what you learn in 3 or 4".

Some BSN programs start the nursing courses early on, 2nd semester freshman year or sophomore year, while others have two years of liberal arts and sciences then two years of nursing classes.

It's too bad your coworkers thought a BSN was totally useless. I'd say that's on them.

Your argument about the "non-traditional students" etc is an old one, as old as this debate. Interestingly, some other professions did not put up such a big fight about higher education requirements, e.g. teaching. They went from the two year "normal school" education to a BA/BS without a 50+ year debate about it. When Physical Therapy transitioned from a master's to doctoral degree for entry into practice over a few years' transition and not so much angst.
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Old 07-27-2018, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Denver CO
18,975 posts, read 10,032,914 times
Reputation: 27746
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
I went to Univ. of Pittsburgh in 1971 for liberal arts (two years). Went to a hospital school of nursing in 1979 which closed a few years later. Worked as an RN in psychiatric for 37 years at a Harvard teaching hospital and then retired this past January.

My observation of BSNs is that the four years do not give them more nursing experience, but the first two years are mostly liberal arts and requirements. They most certainly have less clinical experience than 2-year graduates. Back in the day (my school days) BSNs were also failing the Board exams in larger numbers, likely due to the lack of clinical experience.

I am not against BSNs as an option but would argue that they are not better prepared for clinical work.

The RN-BSN programs are good for those who want or need a BSN for their own options. When I retired, I think I was the last non-BSN working there. I believe part of this was the oversupply of BSNs in the Boston area due to the many programs. A lot of my co-workers got the two-year credential in community college and then worked on a BSN online for their own options.

Making the BSN the entry-level credential will cut out a lot of non-traditional students who did not or cannot begin at the four-year level. I have asked many of them (older students, working-class, parents, immigrants) if they l learned anything of use from the BSN versus their earlier student experiences and they have uniformly said no, it's just a hoop to jump through.

Later in life, I got a master's in public health. Had no effect on my RN life, and wasn't meant to.
I'm not clear from your post - did you end up getting a BSN? Or a bachelors degree in a different field?

My MPH program required a bachelors degree for admission.
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Old 07-27-2018, 10:22 AM
 
12,842 posts, read 24,473,188 times
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I called the master's program and asked what bachelor's I should get for the MPH application, with 61 credits of liberal arts, two years of hospital school, and five years of RN work. They told me to take the GRE and ace it and apply, which I did.

I certainly wondered if it was a money grab by Boston University. I have never gotten a BSN and did not see the need for one for my own options. I got the MPH with the hope of working in international public health, went into the Peace Corps for field experience. Wrong place, wrong time- Haiti, right after Duvalier left. The group was pulled out for political violence and at least one volunteer being gang-raped. I left before making the full commitment and didn't have the heart to try for another slot elsewhere.

My reference to BSNs and the Boards goes way back to 1980 and was what my RN program told me- my program being a 2-year hospital program of almost all older/non-traditional students. Also, the Boards then were five separate tests, all of which needed to be passed to gain the credential, and it was very clinically focused.
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Old 07-27-2018, 10:31 AM
 
12,842 posts, read 24,473,188 times
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I didn't mean to hijack this discussion.

My former job had a never-ending flow of new grad young BSNs who might stay a year at most. People with different credentialing and experience were not accepting jobs there because the starting pay was just too low.

I am now retired in Colorado (from my RN life in Massachusetts) and so was interested in this discussion. The BSN discussion has been going on my whole working life. I just wanted to suggest that there might be a shortage of BSNs willing to work for less-than-stellar pay, not a "nursing shortage" overall.
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Old 07-27-2018, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Denver CO
18,975 posts, read 10,032,914 times
Reputation: 27746
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
I called the master's program and asked what bachelor's I should get for the MPH application, with 61 credits of liberal arts, two years of hospital school, and five years of RN work. They told me to take the GRE and ace it and apply, which I did.

I certainly wondered if it was a money grab by Boston University. I have never gotten a BSN and did not see the need for one for my own options. I got the MPH with the hope of working in international public health, went into the Peace Corps for field experience. Wrong place, wrong time- Haiti, right after Duvalier left. The group was pulled out for political violence and at least one volunteer being gang-raped. I left before making the full commitment and didn't have the heart to try for another slot elsewhere.

My reference to BSNs and the Boards goes way back to 1980 and was what my RN program told me- my program being a 2-year hospital program of almost all older/non-traditional students. Also, the Boards then were five separate tests, all of which needed to be passed to gain the credential, and it was very clinically focused.
Well, interestingly, we are fellow alums! I guess I went a dozen or so years after you and they were a little stricter with admission standards. But not like they are now - there is a common application for schools of public health that they all have to use, and other things that weren't required when I went.
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Old 07-27-2018, 10:42 AM
 
12,842 posts, read 24,473,188 times
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Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
Well, interestingly, we are fellow alums! ...
If I may ask, did you use your MPH in work? I felt like my main interest was in international, and if I couldn't get that going, decided to call it a day with the MPH.

Even back then, the admission woman told me that I'd be a "special student" designation, whatever that meant. I really did wallop the GRE.
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Old 07-27-2018, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,960 posts, read 98,795,031 times
Reputation: 31371
Quote:
Originally Posted by brightdoglover View Post
I called the master's program and asked what bachelor's I should get for the MPH application, with 61 credits of liberal arts, two years of hospital school, and five years of RN work. They told me to take the GRE and ace it and apply, which I did.

I certainly wondered if it was a money grab by Boston University. I have never gotten a BSN and did not see the need for one for my own options. I got the MPH with the hope of working in international public health, went into the Peace Corps for field experience. Wrong place, wrong time- Haiti, right after Duvalier left. The group was pulled out for political violence and at least one volunteer being gang-raped. I left before making the full commitment and didn't have the heart to try for another slot elsewhere.

My reference to BSNs and the Boards goes way back to 1980 and was what my RN program told me- my program being a 2-year hospital program of almost all older/non-traditional students. Also, the Boards then were five separate tests, all of which needed to be passed to gain the credential, and it was very clinically focused.
The boards have changed but that doesn't mean they're easier. As you well know, there's a lot of gossip that goes around in nursing circles. I never heard that about BSN pass rates; I have heard that some ADN programs have lower rates. So we all "hear" different things. I can't find any historical data.
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