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Old Today, 04:03 PM
 
5,524 posts, read 830,981 times
Reputation: 14424

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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
Should not be *allowed* to attend?

So who do you think should be the arbiter of who gets to attend college? The State?

Wow.
Yes, I do, based on an even playing field and based on the anticipated need for college graduates. I think that it is unfair that children have an unfair advantage in getting ahead in life just because their parents are wealthy or because of some ancestry-based quota.

You are, of course, free to disagree.
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Old Today, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
21,281 posts, read 22,421,172 times
Reputation: 35941
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
Yes, I do, based on an even playing field and based on the anticipated need for college graduates. I think that it is unfair that children have an unfair advantage in getting ahead in life just because their parents are wealthy or because of some ancestry-based quota.

You are, of course, free to disagree.
That's not what you said though. You said:

Quote:
, I do NOT think that people with a C average in high school should be allowed to go to a four-year college or university, period
Which takes the decision away from the individual universities. Plenty of "C" students in high school do well in college - completely separate from their parent's wealth or ethnicity.
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Old Today, 04:16 PM
 
584 posts, read 255,726 times
Reputation: 911
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
Yes, I do, based on an even playing field and based on the anticipated need for college graduates. I think that it is unfair that children have an unfair advantage in getting ahead in life just because their parents are wealthy or because of some ancestry-based quota.

You are, of course, free to disagree.

Rule #1. Life is not fair.
Rule #2 Get used to rule #1
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Old Today, 05:16 PM
 
5,524 posts, read 830,981 times
Reputation: 14424
To: Maciesmom

To recap, yes, I had said "I do NOT think that people with a C average in high school should be allowed to go to a four-year college or university, period" and I still stand by that. However, I also think that when it comes to college admission, it should not be based on anything but merit and ability. I will repeat what I also said, and that is that " I do think that it is unfair that children have an unfair advantage in getting ahead in life just because their parents are wealthy or because of some ancestry-based quota."

Maybe I was unclear, for which I apologize, but I don't think that any of my statements is a contradiction to any other statement I made in this thread.

Also, I don't think if admittance was based only on merit and aptitude, that it would take the decision away from college admission decision-makers except for in cases where it was indisputably unfair -- for example, accepting one child with a C+ average and below average SAT scores and denying admittance to someone with a B average and above average SAT scores.

And although, there might be plenty of of "C" students in high school do well in college, that is not usually the case. In fact, often students with a 3.5 average in high school barely pass their college courses.

The following article, based on University of Toronto research and other sources, does say that many factors affect how well a student does in college (duh) and that it IS true that stellar high school students often bomb in college, but so do many others. It is also true that different people thrive under different environments, but the article also said that the people least likely to do well in college are those who do not study, which I think is true of a good many C students, but not so many A students. (Of course, I could be wrong!) [Quote from the article: "One trait that stood out was the amount of time that students studied. Thrivers arrived at college ready to work hard. Compared with the divers, the thrivers planned to study three additional hours a week, on average." endquote]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.1fcc2fe725f0

P.S. And, yes, I do know that life is not fair, but that doesn't mean that it could be made to be MORE fair.
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Old Today, 05:37 PM
Status: "Epiphany Season" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,668 posts, read 100,057,719 times
Reputation: 32123
Quote:
Originally Posted by COcheesehead View Post
Sorry maybe I got my stats wrong and he said around 60%. I thought he said around 70%. But his point was schools have set their sights on educating students for college, yet the numbers stay consistent on how many actually attend, at the same time trade education has been removed from the schools. You can listen to the podcast at CPR. It was just from the other day.

As far as how do I know there is a shortage? We are trying to build a home and heard about the shortage from every builder we talked to.
I also know someone who does fix and flips. Says he can't find enough trades.
Hick must have said about 40% never attend college. Keep in mind these are stats from new high school graduates. Some people do go to college later, though again, those who start by age 20 have a much higher chance of graduating.
https://slate.com/business/2014/11/u...-4-charts.html

Sorry but your anecdotes are not data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
Not everyone's talent or interest lies in that type of work. I say the same to those who claim everyone should aspire to college. It takes all kinds.

I am more concerned with the idea that Big Brother hovers and determines who is *allowed* to attend college in an "across the board" cutoff. That's just odd.
Exactly! Most people think that "other people's kids" are the ones who aren't college 'material', not their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
That's not what you said though. You said:



Which takes the decision away from the individual universities. Plenty of "C" students in high school do well in college - completely separate from their parent's wealth or ethnicity.
Exactly again! Lots of "late bloomers" out there.
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Old Today, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
21,281 posts, read 22,421,172 times
Reputation: 35941
Quote:
I do know that life is not fair, but that doesn't mean that it could be made to be MORE fair.
So somehow you deem MORE fair to mean that students who (for any multitude of reasons and any multitudes of economic or "ancestral background" including not having strong parental support, not attending a high school that provides much in the way of college prep including underfunded urban or rural schools-, ability, maturity, family economic stress etc) only obtain a "C" average in high school, are just SOL?

No chance for redemption or maturity just shut down due to choices or circumstances of one's life from 14-18?

I'm not seeing much "MORE fair" there.

Last edited by maciesmom; Today at 06:32 PM..
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Old Today, 07:12 PM
 
584 posts, read 255,726 times
Reputation: 911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Hick must have said about 40% never attend college. Keep in mind these are stats from new high school graduates. Some people do go to college later, though again, those who start by age 20 have a much higher chance of graduating.
https://slate.com/business/2014/11/u...-4-charts.html

Sorry but your anecdotes are not data.



Exactly! Most people think that "other people's kids" are the ones who aren't college 'material', not their own.



Exactly again! Lots of "late bloomers" out there.
My anecdotal evidence will become the “data” you desire next time you need a plumber and can’t book one.
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Old Today, 07:42 PM
Status: "Epiphany Season" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,668 posts, read 100,057,719 times
Reputation: 32123
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
To: Maciesmom

To recap, yes, I had said "I do NOT think that people with a C average in high school should be allowed to go to a four-year college or university, period" and I still stand by that. However, I also think that when it comes to college admission, it should not be based on anything but merit and ability. I will repeat what I also said, and that is that " I do think that it is unfair that children have an unfair advantage in getting ahead in life just because their parents are wealthy or because of some ancestry-based quota."

Maybe I was unclear, for which I apologize, but I don't think that any of my statements is a contradiction to any other statement I made in this thread.

Also, I don't think if admittance was based only on merit and aptitude, that it would take the decision away from college admission decision-makers except for in cases where it was indisputably unfair -- for example, accepting one child with a C+ average and below average SAT scores and denying admittance to someone with a B average and above average SAT scores.

And although, there might be plenty of of "C" students in high school do well in college, that is not usually the case. In fact, often students with a 3.5 average in high school barely pass their college courses.

The following article, based on University of Toronto research and other sources, does say that many factors affect how well a student does in college (duh) and that it IS true that stellar high school students often bomb in college, but so do many others. It is also true that different people thrive under different environments, but the article also said that the people least likely to do well in college are those who do not study, which I think is true of a good many C students, but not so many A students. (Of course, I could be wrong!) [Quote from the article: "One trait that stood out was the amount of time that students studied. Thrivers arrived at college ready to work hard. Compared with the divers, the thrivers planned to study three additional hours a week, on average." endquote]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.1fcc2fe725f0

P.S. And, yes, I do know that life is not fair, but that doesn't mean that it could be made to be MORE fair.
What makes you think the bold is happening now, to any great degree? The flagship university of this state, the U of Colorado has a pretty merit-based admissions system. All students are automatically considered for certain scholarships: https://www.colorado.edu/scholarship...sider/freshmen and there are many scholarships for first generation college students, etc.

What you are proposing is not fair.
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