Once again, geography matters (Denver, Colorado Springs: live in, costs, storage)

[Bob from down south]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
The Farmer and the Cowboy kin be friends
Oh the Farmer and the Cowboy kin be frie---ends
One man likes to push a plow
The other likes to chase a cow
But that's no reason why they caynt be fri-ends...

Jazz, I'm not sure your cowpoke friends in eastern CO are justified in looking down their noses at Mr Sodbuster...the Dust Bowl has never been successfully pinned on clear-land agriculture. There was drought, some atypical increase in cyclonic winds, possibly associated with a shift in the jetstream, and mechanized agriculture. Probably a combination of the three caused the dust bowl.

Could be he looks at them as being stupid or ignorant for what they've been doing with the place for many decades already. Being first-squatter on the land doesn't annoint one with some preemptive position to be in the right. Could be the Indians that those cowpokes kicked off the land in the 1800s knew something even they didn't.

I think if one shows up to a new place with a "don't you realize how cool I think I am" attitude, they're gonna be disappointed by the less than enthusiastic reception by the locals. OTOH, if one is a local inbred that just can't progress beyond cowpies on the pasture as a way of life, he may well be disappointed in the arrival of a somewhat more enlightened and capable populace that will outcompete and outproduce him and push him off into the margins of what used to be his own backyard. Sorta like what Mr Cowpoke Native's ancestors did to those Indians. What goes around, comes around... 8^D

If you're a new guy, you'd be smart to listen to the...ummmm..."natives" who know the land, weather, and some of the other natives a little better. But if you're a "native," you'd be dumb *not* to give some credit to the new arrivals for what they might bring in to make the place a little better. I'd guess it's probably pretty hard to get an MRI in Punkin Center CO.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by Sockeye

Phoenix and Tucson have completely overgrown their water supply. I referred to both in the present tense. The Front Range here in CO ditto. Big difference here is that we get a lot more moisture from the sky and OUR mountains than the Sunbelt does.
Moreover, can you imagine life in Phoenix without air conditioning?
At the end of the day, I'd much rather be here in CO than Phoenix if current trends in energy continue.

Incorrect. Tucson has outgrown its water supply, Phoenix has not. I'm honestly not sure if either state is going to be any more preferable than the other in the future in terms of energy or water. Denver is a semi-arid arid climate that is susceptible to droughts. Phoenix averages 7.7 inches of precipitation a year. Denver averages 15.4 inches of precipitation a year. That's twice as much. But look at the midwest. How about Kansas City, the next major city to the east? KC averages 36 inches of precipitation a year. That's over twice what Denver gets. And there are cities that get more than that. Both Denver and Phoenix rely on exotic rivers coming from mountain snowpack, which can be highly variable from year to year. To think Denver's water situation is worlds better than Phoenix is splitting hairs actually. Actually, in terms of water rights, Phoenix is actually in a much better position than Denver. People in Phoenix waste water like there's no tomorrow, whereas people in Denver are often forced with watering restrictions in the summer.

Now, air conditioning uses a lot of energy and costs a lot of money. Phoenix does have a tremendous potential to utilize solar energy, though. And also, it is very possible to live in Phoenix without using any natural gas at all. In fact, the apartment I lived in did not have natural gas. Heating your house in Denver in the winter costs a TON of money too. It is very possible to go the entire year in Phoenix without needing to heat your house one single time. There might be a handful of nights there where you would want to wear a jacket inside, but you would survive just fine, as long as you make sure your pipes don't freeze. Now, by the way, I agree Phoenix sucks. I never want to live there ever again. But get your facts straight, please.

[Sockeye]

My facts are straight. Phoenix has outgrown its water supply.
And if you live in an adequately sized energy efficient home here in CO, that is, less than 2400 sq. ft., and keep the thermostat at a temperature that wouldn't make nothern Europeans sweat, your heating bills won't be a big problem.
My question, Pilgrim, is this: where would you rather be minus energy and water from other states-Phoenix or Denver?

[Katiana]

vegaspilgrim brings up an interesting point. We have all read about Atlanta's "drought" (sp?). Recently, I read an article that they received only 32" of rain last year. 32"!!! That is more than twice as much as we get in a normal year. What the h*** kind of a drought is that? There are many cities that get no more precip that are not having water issues. Apparently, they have a water distribution problem. So some of this is in the eye of the beholder.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by Bob from down south

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
The Farmer and the Cowboy kin be friends
Oh the Farmer and the Cowboy kin be frie---ends
One man likes to push a plow
The other likes to chase a cow
But that's no reason why they caynt be fri-ends...

Jazz, I'm not sure your cowpoke friends in eastern CO are justified in looking down their noses at Mr Sodbuster...the Dust Bowl has never been successfully pinned on clear-land agriculture. There was drought, some atypical increase in cyclonic winds, possibly associated with a shift in the jetstream, and mechanized agriculture. Probably a combination of the three caused the dust bowl.

Could be he looks at them as being stupid or ignorant for what they've been doing with the place for many decades already. Being first-squatter on the land doesn't annoint one with some preemptive position to be in the right. Could be the Indians that those cowpokes kicked off the land in the 1800s knew something even they didn't.

I think if one shows up to a new place with a "don't you realize how cool I think I am" attitude, they're gonna be disappointed by the less than enthusiastic reception by the locals. OTOH, if one is a local inbred that just can't progress beyond cowpies on the pasture as a way of life, he may well be disappointed in the arrival of a somewhat more enlightened and capable populace that will outcompete and outproduce him and push him off into the margins of what used to be his own backyard. Sorta like what Mr Cowpoke Native's ancestors did to those Indians. What goes around, comes around... 8^D

If you're a new guy, you'd be smart to listen to the...ummmm..."natives" who know the land, weather, and some of the other natives a little better. But if you're a "native," you'd be dumb *not* to give some credit to the new arrivals for what they might bring in to make the place a little better. I'd guess it's probably pretty hard to get an MRI in Punkin Center CO.

These folks are long-time and well-educated stewards of the land. As a former agriculturalist, I also think that native pasture is a preferable and more sustainable type of agriculture to high-tillage dryland farming in the soils found in much of eastern Colorado.

I also think that most experts place a lot of blame for the Dust Bowl on land tillage practices. Another fellow I know who lives and farms in southeastern Colorado related to me that several of the drought years just recently were far drier in his area than some in the Dust Bowl. He attributes the fact that there was not a "new" Dust Bowl to the amount of land in the CRP program and the amount of farmland now farmed with minimum tillage practices. He is now alarmed because of the amount of CRP land that appears about to be "busted" again into wheat production. He sees real trouble brewing if there is a dry year--and, by the way, this spring has been horribly dry in a lot of eastern Colorado.

Oh, and one hell of a lot of tax dollars were spent after the Dust Bowl by the Feds reacquiring former farm lands and restoring them to native range. That includes most of the Rita Blanca National Grassland in New Mexico, Comanche and Pawnee in Colorado, and Thunder Basin in Wyoming. A little of that "historical perspective" from this old Colorado native.

[sberdrow]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Right on the money, jazzlover. In urban Colorado we're going to start seeing a bunch of changes, too. Like people living in Castle Rock, Monument, or even Colorado Springs-- and driving to work every day in Denver. People living in Evergreen or Conifer in the foothills and commuting to Denver every day. It ain't going to happen forever. People are going to have to start liking the flatlands, because a mountain view from the plains is the most of the mountains most people are going to see. Any residence located within a mile of a mass transit line is going to see property values skyrocket, whereas areas located on the far flung outskirts of the metro area far from major job centers will start seeing values plummet. I predict that the faster gas prices rise, the more and more interest people will start showing in commuter rail lines. As the lifestyle of people using Denver as simply a base camp to make money during the week and then go up to the mountains every weekend for fun becomes less and less affordable, only people who truly want to live in Denver, a city on the high plains, will remain; many of those who moved there primarily to ski and hike will probably leave. Only those with deep connections to the region will even want to stay. Another change that will occur is we will have to start relying more on locally grown produce and meat and less on food shipped around the world. In some ways, the increase of transportation costs is a good thing-- it will force us to become more efficient and start paying more attention to geography.

Well I think that if people decide that they cannot afford to live in the mountains, or even CS, then the price of real estate will tank in those areas, as supply and demand math takes its course, it might offset the price of fuel if lets say the home prices decrease by 50 percent or more. What do you ecconomist think about that? ps (it was me with the rep point yesterday Vagaspilgram, how did you know?)

[nelumbo]

Originally Posted by Katiana

vegaspilgrim brings up an interesting point. We have all read about Atlanta's "drought" (sp?). Recently, I read an article that they received only 32" of rain last year. 32"!!! That is more than twice as much as we get in a normal year. What the h*** kind of a drought is that?

Drought is relative to 'normal' rainfall, not absolute rainfall. Atlanta averages about 50 inches of rain per year, so 32" is a significant reduction. Huntsville AL received 28.5 inches last year, but their normal is 56.25". Areas which usually receive lots of rain are adapted for it - big trees that need and use lots of water, etc. What if a tropical rainforest that usually gets 100"+ a year 'only' received 50" of rain? There would be intense stress on the ecosystem, and it would certainly be considered a drought.

Las Vegas has an annual net precipitation of 4.5" - if Denver only received 4.5", that would be a severe drought.

[sberdrow]

Originally Posted by nelumbo

Drought is relative to 'normal' rainfall, not absolute rainfall. Atlanta averages about 50 inches of rain per year, so 32" is a significant reduction. Huntsville AL received 28.5 inches last year, but their normal is 56.25". Areas which usually receive lots of rain are adapted for it - big trees that need and use lots of water, etc. What if a tropical rainforest that usually gets 100"+ a year 'only' received 50" of rain? There would be intense stress on the ecosystem, and it would certainly be considered a drought.

Las Vegas has an annual net precipitation of 4.5" - if Denver only received 4.5", that would be a severe drought.

Wa State has tropical rain forests (only one is USA) and I think it gets less than 50 inches.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by Sockeye

My facts are straight. Phoenix has outgrown its water supply.
And if you live in an adequately sized energy efficient home here in CO, that is, less than 2400 sq. ft., and keep the thermostat at a temperature that wouldn't make nothern Europeans sweat, your heating bills won't be a big problem.
My question, Pilgrim, is this: where would you rather be minus energy and water from other states-Phoenix or Denver?

I want to see your proof that Phoenix has, as of right now, outgrown its water supply. I want to see the hard facts. Not just a false feeling of moral superiority over the desert southwest region. Then we'll talk. I would rather live in Denver, not because of energy and water factors, but because this is where I was born and raised, this is where my family lives, and I think Denver is a much nicer city to live in with a much more tolerable climate. Denver also has a much better public transportation system, and with Fastracks, it will become one of the best in the country. But I've always loved the desert southwest too, and desert southwest cities have a certain distinct look and feel in the architecture that you just can't get in Denver. Oh well, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Arizona has some significant coal reserves located on the Colorado Plateau in the north part of the state. It has quite a bit of hydroelectricity from all the numerous dams in the state. Then you combine that with future untapped potential of solar energy, and I think its energy problems are the least of its worries. Also, if push came to shove, Phoenicians could go back to using swamp coolers instead of refrigerated air conditioners. People there are so heat crazed they would probably still live there even if they had to sweat in their houses at night. That's how crazy they are.

Again, there's the SALT RIVER. Most of Phoenix gets its water from the Salt River Project (SRP). The Salt River is fed by snowpack in higher elevations in the Mogollon Rim, which is almost entirely in Arizona (with a piece of it in New Mexico). Just because Colorado has all those snowpack-fed mountain streams within the boundaries of the state does not mean Colorado has the RIGHTS to all that water. Water rights are an extremely complicated subject. Colorado has to share its water that originates in the state with both the Upper Basin and Lower Basin states, as well as Mexico. Another thing I forget to mention-- no snow in Phoenix. Now I like snow, but driving in snow sucks. Do you have any idea how much of that magnesium chloride chemical is sprayed on the roads in Denver every winter, and how much energy it takes to plow thousands of miles of roads? Phoenix doesn't have to worry about that problem. Also, I forget which thread it was, but Katiana brought up an interesting point of historic neighborhoods in Denver that forbid homeowners to replace their windows with more energy efficient, double-pane windows. Many of those old homes in Denver's historic neighborhoods waste energy like unbelievable. Point is, you have a false sense of security if you think Denver is the ideal place to be in an energy crunch and if you think that Phoenix will not continue to be a major player in the region. Your post also exudes a lack of familiarity with the issues of water rights in the West.

[livecontent]

Originally Posted by Sockeye

My facts are straight. Phoenix has outgrown its water supply.
And if you live in an adequately sized energy efficient home here in CO, that is, less than 2400 sq. ft., and keep the thermostat at a temperature that wouldn't make nothern Europeans sweat, your heating bills won't be a big problem.
My question, Pilgrim, is this: where would you rather be minus energy and water from other states-Phoenix or Denver?

Both of you Sockeye and VegasPilgrim look at this report:
America's Drought-Riskiest Cities

Moderator cut: linking to competitors sites is not allowed

Now look at the complete ranking and you will see Denver/Aurora and Colorado Springs in Moderately Wet and Phoenix is in Severe Drought

Another link to this study Drought Score

What is your take on this???

Livecontent