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Old 07-13-2008, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
5,610 posts, read 23,221,477 times
Reputation: 5447

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What ever happened to this livecontent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by livecontent View Post
That is very intelligent, gracious response to an angry ogre who was waiting for an easy nibble-----I will have to crawl back under my bridge and wait for a less formidable snack.

Thank You,

Livecontent
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Old 07-13-2008, 11:17 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 29,357,988 times
Reputation: 9305
Let me articulate one more time, and maybe with more clarity, my position on this issue. First, I don't agree with the notion of using out-of-state tuition as a "cash cow" to offset low in-state tuition, as Katiana suggests might be the practice in Colorado. My only point is that out-of-state students should be paying their actual cost of attending school in Colorado--no more than that, since neither they nor their parents are paying the taxes in Colorado that a Colorado student (or his or her resident parents) are. Certainly, as livecontent and others suggested, there are numerous avenues for both in-state and out-of-state students to pursue to get other financial grants or assistance to attend college--that is a separate discussion. Second, my thought about extending the time period to gain residency was aimed mostly at preventing the little reindeer games that some non-residents will play simply to get resident status for tuition purposes only. And that, too, is not a problem unique to Colorado, either. The quotas that Katiana cites may be one reaction to that problem that other states pursue.

Finally, whether anyone likes or not, this is a discussion that will have to be debated by those who determine the funding for Colorado's higher education system. What is fact is this: Colorado's higher education system is not especially well-rated compared to other state systems, it's likelihood of receiving significant increases in state general fund monies--thanks to TABOR--is small, and that increases in tuition--whether from in-state or out-of-state students--are going to be a fact of life. It's another case where we (and not just in Colorado, either) have painted ourselves into a corner with only some relatively unpleasant choices available to us.

I will editorialize on one other comment that livecontent made--and one that I agree with to a certain extent. Colorado has a significant problem in the management of its college and university systems. Here it is the problem that "to the biggest, go the spoils." Colorado's higher education system's priorities are totally biased toward its two big universities, CU and CSU, whose programs (including athletics) are lavished with bloated administrations and budgets, while its smaller colleges are increasingly left to wither. If we must prioritize higher education funding in Colorado, then let's spend the money on EDUCATING kids, not fancy high-profile research projects, or football teams and stadiums, or empire-building political hacks trying to make a name for themselves for some run for another office.
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Old 07-13-2008, 11:48 PM
 
105 posts, read 476,705 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
You want to live and go to school in Colorado--that's fine. The fact is your education at a state college or university is being subsidized by Colorado resident taxpayers. It seems a little unfair for you to expect to get the benefit of that subsidy when you will have only been a taxpayer in Colorado for one year--especially if you compare yourself to an in-state student whose parents may have been paying taxes in Colorado for years or decades. (In my case, my parents had been taxpayers in Colorado for about 30 years when I went to college, and I personally had been paying Colorado taxes for over four years when I started college.) As far as getting an education, you probably have plenty of opportunities (with in-state tuition) where you are living now. If you want to go to college in Colorado, that is a lifestyle choice you are making. Don't expect the Colorado taxpayers to gleefully subsidize it, though--not when they are often struggling to pay their own Colorado resident student's (or their own) tuition, plus Colorado taxes, to boot.
My parents and I lived in California for 4 years and they payed taxes the whole time we were there(my grandparents were also paying taxes there). Yet since we left and I finished school somewhere else I was not able qualify for in-state tuition when I wanted to go back for school. I've also lived in many other states for several years at a time where taxes were paid but again I would not qualify for in-state tuition under their laws because I moved. In the meantime many states like california are giving in-state tuition to illegal aliens who dont pay any taxes because they work under the table. So please explain to me how this is fair or even logical.

If your a us citzen you should be able to go to school anywhere in the country you want and not have to pay outrageous prices. Last time I checked all state schools receive federal money so not only is out-of-state tuition immoral its also unconstitutional. You dont see Canada or countries in Europe putting there young people in all the debt that the US is with these ridiculous tuition rates. Something needs to be done about it.

Last edited by brian21; 07-14-2008 at 12:17 AM..
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Old 07-14-2008, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
5,610 posts, read 23,221,477 times
Reputation: 5447
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
Colorado has a significant problem in the management of its college and university systems. Here it is the problem that "to the biggest, go the spoils." Colorado's higher education system's priorities are totally biased toward its two big universities, CU and CSU, whose programs (including athletics) are lavished with bloated administrations and budgets, while its smaller colleges are increasingly left to wither. If we must prioritize higher education funding in Colorado, then let's spend the money on EDUCATING kids, not fancy high-profile research projects, or football teams and stadiums, or empire-building political hacks trying to make a name for themselves for some run for another office.
I agree with this, from personal experience-- especially when it comes to CU Boulder. Here's my experience as a recent college graduate, now in a master's program: The size of the heads of the administration of that school are mushroomed beyond belief. Back when I was applying to master's in accounting programs (the program I'm in right now) I really wanted to go to CU Boulder. I really wanted (and still do) to come back to Colorado, I figured CU Boulder is the best overall comprehensive university in the state, the Denver accounting firms go straight there to recruit (which would make the process I'm about to go through very soon a whole lot simpler), and I still qualify for Colorado in-state tuition. But they wouldn't even consider taking me, because I didn't meet their fine print of required classes to get in (I was missing intermediate accounting-- the class I'm taking right now-- and a few general business classes). I talked to the administrators of the program, explained my situation, told them I was quite willing and able to bulk up on as many classes this summer as necessary to get to the job done to be admitted in the fall... but they wouldn't budge.

Now I don't want to sound like a pompous little punk here, but I'm no dummy. My grades and test scores were top of the line. My undergraduate background, while not a business major (but including some business law & ethics, accounting, economics, computer science and stats classes), consisted of a huge variety of course subjects, so I personally believed I was just as ready as any business major to succeed in their program (assuming I take a few classes this summer). I got in every school I applied to, including at least according to the 2007 Public Accounting Report (http://www.bentley.edu/graduate/banner_PDFs/parereport.pdf - broken link) #5 ranked school in accounting (the one I'm at right now). I'm even getting a scholarship here which is taking out a major chunk of the bite of attending an expensive private school like this. One of the California State schools that I applied to (and decided against it) offered me a waiver of the non-resident portion of tuition as an incentive to go there. If you take a look at that list though, and ask yourself "where's CU?", you won't find it. Not only is CU Boulder not on the top 25 list, their accounting department is not AACSB accredited in accounting (http://www.aacsb.edu/General/InstLists.asp?lid=4 - broken link)(the Leeds School of Business is an AACSB accredited business school, but their accounting department does not have the special additional accreditation in accounting). Interestingly, CU Denver is. My alma mater, Arizona State, is ranked #14 on the list.

Once I learned CU Boulder wasn't an option, I almost made the decision to go to CU Denver. I flew out back home for the weekend, talked to a bunch of people there, and I really wanted to go there, but unfortunately after I had sorted out all the facts, I left the Auraria campus that afternoon without feeling 100% confident about their program. Main problem is their program is only part time and it would take me two years to finish there, and only several of the "Big Four" accounting firms even recruit from there, so I wasn't confident about my future job prospects. Whereas, what I'm doing now costs much, much more, but assuming I keep up with the program, I graduate in one year and then I'm off into the real world. It was a tough decision to make, but I think it was the right choice. The thing is, I really wish schools like CU Denver had more resources than they current do. For one, the Auraria campus is in a much better location than CU Boulder. It's right in the middle of everything, just across Speer Blvd from downtown, right next to light rail and convenient public transportation to any corner of the metro area. I like how CU Denver is just about the academics... no athletic departments there and millions of other distractions. The administration there, while not the absolute best either, at least really tries. But the school operates on very limited constraints, so there's only so much they can offer.

So if all ends up right, after a five year hiatus (with many summer and winter break stays back home in between), I'll be back in Denver, Colorado permanently next May (assuming I don't get swept up by the desire to move to Albuquerque, New Mexico instead) with a job ready to start. But no thanks to the Colorado higher education system. Oh yeah, and this year, when CU plays CSU, I'm for the Rams.
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Road Warrior
2,016 posts, read 5,561,766 times
Reputation: 836
Way to go vegaspilgrim, USC and ASU are both top notch schools, I also grew up in Colorado and though CU is great, had no desire to be a Buff, I did consider CSU but the only prob is it's so lowly ranked #124 that I would have felt that I put my efforts in high school to waste and no I was not going to School of Mines for several other reasons, thus I also went out of state for the academics. The only thing was I did not have to pay for college as the military paid for me so it was not an issue as many others face.

There are two kinds of people I have seen that move out of Colorado, one of which misses what Colorado has and even misses what Colorado doesn't have and eventually comes back home. The other I have found has often moved away for the chase, the better opportunities, the pay and thrive in it and have no desire to come back whatsoever. That's merely a personal preference, you gotta give some to gain some. While going back to the topic, of out-of-staters at the CU system, we all know that there is a huge percentage of out-of-staters who come for the lifestyle rather the academics, even though some may say the out-of-state percentage has decreased to 33% and that many out-of-staters flunk out after the 1st year (which says something alone) that is still a whooping number compared to out-of-staters by other public institutions of higher education. While I am not an advocate of a 5 year plan, I do thank Jazzlover for simply defending his state. I think there are better ways to improve the system from within, such as what a public institution is supposed to do, that of catering to it's public. However I am also not an advocate of hard earned tax dollars going to out-of-state kids who are here just to party it up and perhaps some states don't attract that crowd, but Colorful Colorado undeniably does.
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Old 07-14-2008, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,147,178 times
Reputation: 35920
I believe you misunderstood me a bit Ranger. I said many of the out-of-state students transfer back to Cali (and other states) after a year or two, not that they flunk out.

I think jazzlover is being a bit provincial with his five year idea. I have never heard of another state having such a high requirement; most have one year requirements, and in some cases in Illinois, it's six months.

I think fixing the higher ed system will cost money, in the form of higher taxes. IMO, it's money well spent, probably better spent than on a lot of things.

I agree that CU can be "difficult". My daughter transferred there after two years at a private college and lost some credits in courses that were "not subustantially the same as those at CU". Ironically, they take transfer credits from the community colleges, but they'll give someone from another 4 yr. college a hard time. She did petition and got a few more, but still had to go to school this summer so that she can graduate in (hopefully) 4 yrs.
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:10 PM
 
5,089 posts, read 15,341,901 times
Reputation: 7017
The whole idea of mapping out a college education has changed significantly when I started in the 1960s. I was a resident of New York and I won a Regent's Scholarship which paid up to a $1000 a year. At that time SUNY tuition was $400 a semester. What a big change???

From what I can remember at that time--State supported football was a violation of state budget mandates. I do not remember any football at any of the State Universities. That was a good move and there was more money for education.

The biggest change I think in college education today is the ability to take many courses; get many degrees without being on a campus fulltime; or, in many cases, not going to the campus at all. With the addition of the internet we see most colleges have some sort of online education. These are fully acreditated degrees from small colleges, large universities and ivy league schools. If you examine these programs, you will see that some have dropped additional fees for out of state. In addition, there are many more cooperative agreement than when I started college that allows one to get the same tuition from the member schools. In addition, residency requirement, that is the amount of credits needed to be earned at award granting institution have been diminished.

Getting an initial degree or an advanced degree through distant learning can save a signficant amount of money. Also, going back to school for these degrees when you are working or have a family is ideal.

Also today we have more options at the Community College Level which in my day was considered not up to a full standard of a 4 year college and transfers are easier and you can save money.

I think with colleges now competing more nationally and internationally. through the means of distant learning, we will see much more programs will do away with "out of state" tuition requirement.

I look back at my college days. I think that the large university lecture system with courses that required no on hands learning, can be delivered better in an online system. Especially most of these business courses. I can remember discussion that business degrees should not be awarded because they were not academic with diverse learning in a liberal college environment. Now, you see all these degrees, everywhere, and without many distributive requirements.

I believe distant learning options will have an impact on "sleep away" college". I lived in many dorms and I think the experience is over valued in many schools.

Oh, to note, the Great State of Colorado seems to believe we need more football and is establishing a program Colorado State University-Pueblo, formally University of Southern Colorado. Well, what can I say???? it seems to be ingrained in the mentality. Did we not loose a nobel prize winner, in Boulder, for one reason because he felt that too much money was spend on football??


Now if I took all my course at a distance--I would never have met that girl ---what was her name????
If I had to do it over again???? I could have, should have-- perhaps, who knows.........

Livecontent
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,147,178 times
Reputation: 35920
Actually, there are laws in Colorado about the support of football and other sports, as well. There is a lot of financial trickery going on with that stuff. Living in Boulder Co., we read about it frequently. I don't know all the details, but there is a good deal of "sleight of hand" that goes on with college sports.

I'm not sure which Nobel Prize winner you are referring to. I do remember when Carl Weiman and Eric Cornell went to a reception with Pres. Bush, he tried to tak football with them and they wouldn't talk about it. But other than that, I don't know about any other football-related stuff with the Nobel Prize winners.
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Old 07-14-2008, 10:45 PM
 
Location: cincinnati northern, ky
835 posts, read 2,846,633 times
Reputation: 180
yea not only has college complicated itself the entire freakin world has to complicate things. thats sad because my parents cant believe what has happend with college tuition over the years its insane but so is 4.20 gas and a 5 dollar 12 pack of soda, i so wanna go back at times and live off the earth and dirt its tempting
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,822 posts, read 14,007,124 times
Reputation: 16477
Default Frugal credentials

Many folks do not know that they don't have to attend a college to get a legitimate college degree. If you have the discipline and self motivation, you should look into the 'external degree' system.

https://www.excelsior.edu/Excelsior_...itage/Timeline

This is one of the premiere "credential by exam" systems, authorized under the State of New York board of regents.

In the mid 1980s, one could get 33 credit hours by passing a Graduate Record Exam (GRE) in a specific major. Some enterprising self starters took 4 exams, got 132 credits, and with a few other CLEP exams to fill in prerequisites, were awarded Baccalaureate degrees. Overall cost $350.

Today, it's a bit more expensive. But far cheaper than attending a traditional institution of higher credentials.
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