Front Range / High Speed Rail (Denver, Pueblo: house, university, to move)

[Josseppie]

Originally Posted by Bob from down south

Sorry, but HSR between D.C. (the nation's capital) and NYC (largest city and huge international business center) is NOT the same as Pueblo to Denver. Sure, it makes sense when numerous major metro business centers (Boston, NYC, D.C.) with a combined total of 15 million+ people are connected by HSR, but the economics fail miserably on scale considerations alone when connecting cowtown to the Colorado state capital.

Those things in America that aren't based on making a profit (or even paying their own way) cost all of us, and it's fair to assess if they serve a public interest that justifies their cost. It's arguable that there's nothing in Pueblo worth the cost of a four-lane road, much less a massively expensive HSR system. Only a handful of people would benefit materially from a 1-hour HSR versus 3-hour standard pax rail trip from Pubblo to Denver...certainly not worth many tens of $millions in taxpayer subsidies. If you're one of the 13 people that legitimately needs to get there that fast, charter a plane. If you're a Pueblo megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur, dream on.

Right now I would agree but that will not be the case in 20 to 80 years as the front range grows from Pueblo to Fort Collins. So its better to be planning the HSR now to be pro active instead of being retro active when it will be more expensive.

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by Josseppie

Right now I would agree but that will not be the case in 20 to 80 years as the front range grows from Pueblo to Fort Collins. So its better to be planning the HSR now to be pro active instead of being retro active when it will be more expensive.

If that's the case you're going to see even more communities springing up along this supposed "high-speed" line, producing demand for more and more stations along the route (as well as more resistance to the noise associated with the trains). What you're going to end up with, if anything at all, is a slow milk run rather than high speed service.

The folks in CO Springs don't even want to pay for basic city services like street lights. What makes you think they'll pay for trains, high speed or otherwise? High growth areas also tend to attract conservative exurbanites struggling to make the mortgage on that first home they can barely afford as well as retirees living on fixed incomes. They won't be able to pay the taxes required to support the service and will be the first to the lectern to whine about it at City Hall. One thing planners don't really take into account is the demographics of the population who will be required to support the services they're planning.

[Josseppie]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

If that's the case you're going to see even more communities springing up along this supposed "high-speed" line, producing demand for more and more stations along the route (as well as more resistance to the noise associated with the trains). What you're going to end up with, if anything at all, is a slow milk run rather than high speed service.

The folks in CO Springs don't even want to pay for basic city services like street lights. What makes you think they'll pay for trains, high speed or otherwise? High growth areas also tend to attract conservative exurbanites struggling to make the mortgage on that first home they can barely afford as well as retirees living on fixed incomes. They won't be able to pay the taxes required to support the service and will be the first to the lectern to whine about it at City Hall. One thing planners don't really take into account is the demographics of the population who will be required to support the services they're planning.

That is why you limit the stops and do not add more stops as it would defeat the purpose of the HSR. I would support only 2 stops in the Pueblo MSA at most, one in downtown and one in the proposed tech park. Then you connect the other areas that grow to the two stops with light rail or another form of mass transit. Since this is federal funded then Colorado Springs would go along with it as they did with the interstate in fact I think I read where the city council is onboard with the idea. Then if they do not want to connect it with its city and suburbs that is their concern.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

That kind of freedom may become a luxury in the future. As living standards decline in this country (due to declining salaries, higher cost of resources, etc.) to reach a world equilibrium, more people will be forced into denser living conditions and will not be able to afford or keep a personal vehicle. They will need to rely on public transportation just as so much of the rest of the world does. We need to prepare for it now.

Actually, assuming that happens, I think we will be an exurban nation with people moving back to the country, rather than to the city. At least I will, don't know about you folks.

Where I live we have 3 layers of natural gas under our feet, hundreds if not thousands of years of coal, a thriving agricultural sector, manufacturing, pretty much whatever we need.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

I have to chuckle at that one. Many, if not most Americans are in complete direct financial servitude to their automobile(s). I have to say that it is a lot of the reason we are in such deep debt and financial problems. Then, when you add all of the direct and indirect costs of the road system, environmental damage and/or mitigation our auto/petroleum dependent lifestyle demands, defense costs to protect our foreign sources of oil, and all of the complete inefficiency and waste in the living arrangement that auto-dependent suburbia engenders--well, you have a yoke of financial liability placed on the back of every American that is almost beyond calculation. I hardly call that "freedom." In fact, I think that yoke of liability has the potential to literally destroy this country economically, and maybe socially if we don't change course soon.

It's freedom to me. I can go where ever I want, when I want with my car. I am not beholden to schedules, demand or getting transport to that "station".

As I said, if you fear the oil issue, we have plenty of other options that work to power automobiles. And knowing how the world changes and evolves using oil for auto fuel within a generation might be obsolete anyways. Wouldn't worry. Don't internalize all the problems of the world.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

If that's the case you're going to see even more communities springing up along this supposed "high-speed" line, producing demand for more and more stations along the route (as well as more resistance to the noise associated with the trains). What you're going to end up with, if anything at all, is a slow milk run rather than high speed service.

I think some research should be done to really find out how far people currently commute to their jobs on the Front Range. How often would Denverites really need to go to Pueblo for instance? The only real point in HSR is to go from city to city and how often does that happen? And then when you get there how do you to where you need to go in town?

I'd watch some of Top Gear UK's races of cars versus public transport. The car always wins.

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by wanneroo

I'd watch some of Top Gear UK's races of cars versus public transport. The car always wins.

Well if they ever do here between downtown DC and Mid-town Manhattan, I'd bet on the train. I might even vote on a dirigible if pitted against a car on 95.

[Josseppie]

Originally Posted by wanneroo

I think some research should be done to really find out how far people currently commute to their jobs on the Front Range. How often would Denverites really need to go to Pueblo for instance?

They did a study and it was found feasible between Pueblo and Fort Collins.

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by Josseppie

Since this is federal funded then Colorado Springs would go along with it as they did with the interstate in fact I think I read where the city council is onboard with the idea. Then if they do not want to connect it with its city and suburbs that is their concern.

Typical "conservatives". They don't want to pay for anything but have no problem putting a hand out if others are willing to pick up the tab. If I were the Feds I'd require matching funds from the localities.

[Josseppie]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

Typical "conservatives". They don't want to pay for anything but have no problem putting a hand out if others are willing to pick up the tab. If I were the Feds I'd require matching funds from the localities.

This is not a local project so they might require some funds from the state but not really from the city. However the cities did pay for the study to be completed as I read where Pueblo paid something like $20,000 so I am sure the Springs paid the same.