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People here in Utah really seem to enjoy the front runner which is the transportation authorities light rail system. They are constantly adding routes along the Wasatch Front. Check it out at www.rideuta.com
Back in the 1860's, when President Lincoln (R) proposed land grants and funding to build the Trans-Continental Railroad (TCRR), I'm sure a lot of crusty old-timers grumbled about pork, states rights, private enterprise, etc. Turns out the TCRR was one of the most remarkably beneficial things we ever did; it WAS the technology that made "Manifest Destiny" possible and stitched together a GREAT nation.
Back in the 1950's, when President Eisenhower (R) proposed the Interstate Highway System, I'm sure a lot of crusty old-timers grumbled about pork, state prerogatives, private enterprise (toll roads) etc. Turns out the IHS was one of the most remarkably beneficial things we ever did, bringing huge time and cost efficiencies to transport that fueled a boom all through the 1960's. It further stitched together a GREAT nation, created a network of distribution that reaches down to the local level.
Now, we need to re-invent rail passenger transportation to KEEP our nation GREAT for the next 150+ years; during which oil is expected to decline, coal reserves will draw down significantly, and climate will continue to degrade. The population density in numerous corridors are now or soon will have the critical mass to support a national system. It's squarely in the Federal domain to lead the way and pay for most of it as being for the common good, national defense and supports the Commerce Clause. Let's build it. It's not pork. Not even close.
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 05-18-2012 at 06:51 PM..
Now, we need to re-invent rail passenger transportation to KEEP our nation GREAT for the next 150+ years; during which oil is expected to decline, coal reserves will draw down significantly, and climate will continue to degrade. The population density in numerous corridors are now or soon will have the critical mass to support a national system. It's squarely in the Federal domain to lead the way and pay for most of it as being for the common good, national defense and supports the Commerce Clause. Let's build it. It's not pork. Not even close.
I'd like to have improved transportation as much as the next guy and rail transit could be part of that if it were built right. But can we PLEASE leave patriotism out of the picture? The GREATness of any nation is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure the previous land stewards did not think the US was all that great when they were using any all means necessary to claim all that land for their own 'great nation'.
Mike, I agree with most of what you posted above--except the Interstate Highway System. I believe it was/is one of most massive mistakes ever made in this country. We should remember that it was based directly on Adolf Hitler's socialist model of the Autobahn system. Had even a fraction of the money squandered on the Interstate system been invested in rail passenger service instead, we would today have a first-rate national rail passenger system, we would have remained energy independent, we would not have the massive issues of sprawl combined with the death of many of our small towns, and our government would have avoided a sizable chunk of its fiscal problems. Instead, we have massive environmental problems, nearly intractable energy depletion and dependency issues, unsustainable sprawl, and an empty debt-ridden Treasury. For all of its supposed benefits, the Interstate system will likely be remembered by future generations as a grandiose scheme that ultimately caused far more harm than good to this country.
Mike, I agree with most of what you posted above--except the Interstate Highway System. I believe it was/is one of most massive mistakes ever made in this country. We should remember that it was based directly on Adolf Hitler's socialist model of the Autobahn system. Had even a fraction of the money squandered on the Interstate system been invested in rail passenger service instead, we would today have a first-rate national rail passenger system, we would have remained energy independent, we would not have the massive issues of sprawl combined with the death of many of our small towns, and our government would have avoided a sizable chunk of its fiscal problems. Instead, we have massive environmental problems, nearly intractable energy depletion and dependency issues, unsustainable sprawl, and an empty debt-ridden Treasury. For all of its supposed benefits, the Interstate system will likely be remembered by future generations as a grandiose scheme that ultimately caused far more harm than good to this country.
I disagree. I think that the Interstate system opened up America for exploration, something you can't do by rail. This should be readily apparent to those that travel I70, which has some of the most amazing natural beauty along it's trek west including Glenwood Canyon, the San Rafael Swell, and other natural features.
I think that the Interstate Highway System (IHS) opened up America for exploration, something you can't do by rail. This should be readily apparent to those that travel I70, which has some of the most amazing natural beauty along it's trek west including Glenwood Canyon, the San Rafael Swell, and other natural features.
I've seen charts showing the productivity boost that virtually all industries received from the IHS, with a concurrent drop in costs. Game changing stuff. I'm not in full agreement with JazzLover that building the IHS was all a huge mistake. Rather, IMO, the mistake was that we never provided BALANCED public funding for our railroads to make sure that we had an INTEGRATED system that put public monies into a well-designed single national network that melded air, rail and highway into one coherent whole. To this day, we do NOT have a national transportation policy; all we have are spending bills which throw money helter skelter at a hodge podge of projects, many very good, some truly dreadful (bridge to nowhere).
Congress has ignored most rail issues forever, but the time to address it with forward looking policies was the late 1920's when public funding of roads really took off. FYI, the "high water mark" for rail passenger transportation was 1928. What we've had since then are 3 modes all beating each other's brains out for business. That's why our railroads and many subways do NOT go near our airports, etc. All we have to show for it is bankrupt airlines, buses, railroads and high fuel prices. It's time we got over our fascination that totally unregulated free markets provide the best solutions. All we get for bare-knuckle competition is the destruction of great companies (Pan Am Airways, our greatest railroads, both major bus companies). We need to work a total solution to our transportation requirements and ignore the lobbying of each segment and set of vested interests.
Best example of an integrated national system is Germany. You can fly into Frankfurt and not even leave the building to get a train. There are TWO levels of trains UNDER that airport, local and long distance. The road system also serves bus riders and highway users. Marvelous. Just imagine getting off a plane at DIA and taking either a local light rail train to the metro area or getting on a long distance that runs from Billings, MT to El Paso, TX (and hits all the major airports and cities along the way). Ooh ooh baby!
Patriotism isn't quite the word for it, but without good transport we CANNOT be a global economic power, from which all other power flows. It's just a burning desire for meaningful national infrastructure on which we build our national economy for the next 100-200 years.
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 02-04-2010 at 04:27 PM..
Reason: Adding more.
I disagree. I think that the Interstate system opened up America for exploration, something you can't do by rail. This should be readily apparent to those that travel I70, which has some of the most amazing natural beauty along it's trek west including Glenwood Canyon, the San Rafael Swell, and other natural features.
Yeah, we traded the most extensive passenger rail network in the world for a relatively few Interstate corridors across the United States. Some trade. Take a look at a 1920 rail passenger map of the United States, and compare to today's Interstate Highway system.
As to Glenwood Canyon, unlike most people on this forum, I remember it quite well before the Interstate. As "sensitive" as the highway builders tried to be in building I-70 through the canyon, the Interstate ripped the heart out of the canyon compared to what it was. It saddens me every time that I drive through there and remember what once was. That "sensitivity" also made the Interstate through Glenwood Canyon one of the most expensive chunks of road per mile in the United States. Not surprisingly, it is also horrifically expensive to maintain: 12 miles of highway that is probably half bridge--concrete structures in an environment that is one of the most rigorous for causing concrete deterioration in the US.
This was in the Denver post. The part that surprises me is it will only go through the downtown's of Pueblo and Denver and miss the downtown's of Colorado Springs and Fort Collins. That should set the stage so that Denver and Pueblo will have the busiest downtown's in the state once this is completed.
Actually this is great for Pueblo. I would like to see it originate from the historic train station in downtown then go northeast through Pueblo Springs and have a stop at the Pueblo Tech Center (PTC). This would give Pueblo a "light rail line" connecting the two business centers. From there it can go north to Colorado Springs and Denver.
This is the article from the Denver Post:
A study of possible high-speed, intercity rail for Colorado has found that lines between Fort Collins and Pueblo and between Denver International Airport and Eagle County have the best "operating and cost-benefit results" of the options evaluated.
Every time I see the numbers on these things the price tag is out of line with the profits.
Where is Colorado going to source $21 billion from and let's be fair most government projects end up double or more, so we are probably looking at $40-$50 billion all to move a couple of people from Pueblo to Denver? I don't think so.
With the train running out to Vail, I don't see how that economically benefits Vail any further. Before the GFC, the mountain had already hit the peak # of skiers it could handle and I don't see the environmentalists and lawyers going to let anymore ski areas happen out that way. For the $10-$20 Billion cost I can't see the point.
I remember a number of years ago we went though this whole thing before about high speed rail to the high country and it sounded like a mess then and sounds like one now.
If you look at most of the large urban corridors they have successful rail systems and that is why the government is pushing for more of them. The Front Range Urban Corridor is a natural to be included in that as we are one of the fastest growing corridors in the country. Plus the domino affect will create even more jobs and revenue for us. For example that would mean that eventually Pueblo would become a transfer station from Pueblo to Trinidad then it would most likely be upgraded with the New Mexico Rail Runner service extended all the way from Albuquerque to Pueblo. At the Pueblo station, passengers from the south could get off and wait for an electric 200mph train to proceed farther north. Then Pueblo would become an important hub and most likely the Amtrak line to Trinidad (Southwest Chief) would be re-routed straight to Pueblo as well, before turning south to Trinidad. That's three major rail lines at the Pueblo station. Pueblo then would look into building a starter LRT/Streetcar line to help move passengers to and from this major passenger rail hub station and perhaps even connect with the Pueblo Airport passing the college campus at CSU-P. In order to handle all the growth Pueblo would have to expand the historic train depot in downtown much like what Denver is doing with their Union Station now. All of that activity in downtown would create thousands of jobs and millions in revenue every year. If you add the economic benefit to other front range cities it shows that the project would more then pay for itself in a short time.
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Study connecting dots for high-speed rail
